Author Topic: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY  (Read 1793 times)

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Offline bitcrab

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as some time ago the voting power that oppose BSIP42 overcome that support BSIP42, most of the witnesses return to feed just market price, immediately the BTS/bitCNY price fall about 8%, although more margin call orders are eaten, but:

1. price fall continue, bitCNY holders seems to wait for lower price, no big will to eat current margin call orders.

2. bitCNY has a premium of about 10%, it's a disaster for bitCNY business.

3.more debt position margin called, not obvious margin call quantity reduction.

actually witnesses need to be careful while doing a big change, it is not a good behavior to just change while seeing the voting result - no one host/claim/announce the voting activity, it is likely that some balance owner change lead to this result, please be careful while seeing this!

here I propose to restart BSIP42, with adding some new logic:

1.add the black swan protection logic, ensure feed price >global settlement price*1.11

2.ensure feed price > market price.

3.ensure feed price < market price*MSSR

4. if 1 conflict with 3, ignore 3.

5.tolerate a -2%-1% premium, do not adjust feed price if bitCNY premium is in this interval.

this poll will be regarded successful if it get more voting weight than 1.14.119
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

因为BSIP42投票刚刚反对票多过了支持票,于是一些见证人就直接改回了真实市场价喂价,导致内盘BTS价格瞬间跌了7,8个点,虽然帮助消化了一些低抵押率爆仓单,但是造成的恶果是:

1.价格再持续下跌,bitCNY吃爆仓单的意愿并没有足够强,期待更低价格的情绪明显。

2.bitCNY再次溢价10%,大家可以想象带来的恶果是什么。

3.喂价持续下跌带来了更多的爆仓单。

BSIP42投票有特定的计票日,即便要取消BSIP42也不应该采取这么生硬的方式。而且在现在这样的非常时期是需要BSIP42来提升活力并确保bitCNY供应的,我提议对BSIP42进行更新之后重新启动,更新如下:

1.增加黑天鹅防护,确保喂价 >全局清算价*1.11

2.确保喂价高于市场价

3.确保喂价低于市场价*MSSR

4. 如果1与3冲突,舍弃3

5.对-2%-1%之间的溢价作容忍,不更改喂价。

本投票当获得支持超过1.14.119时生效。
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 12:58:05 pm by bitcrab »

Offline clockwork

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2018, 12:01:34 pm »
as some time ago the voting power that oppose BSIP42 overcome that support BSIP42, most of the witnesses return to feed just market price, immediately the BTS/bitCNY price fall about 8%, although more margin call orders are eaten, but:

1. price fall continue, bitCNY holders seems to wait for lower price, no big will to eat current margin call orders.

2. bitCNY has a premium of about 10%, it's a disaster for bitCNY business.

3.more debt position margin called, not obvious margin call quantity reduction.

actually witnesses need to be careful while doing a big change, it is not a good behavior to just change while seeing the voting result - no one host/claim/announce the voting activity, it is likely that some balance owner change lead to this result, please be careful while seeing this!

here I propose to restart BSIP42, with adding some new logic:

1.add the black swan protection logic, ensure feed price >global settlement price*1.11

2.ensure feed price > market price.

3.ensure feed price < market price*MSSR

4. if 1 conflict with 3, ignore 3.

5.tolerate a -2%-1% premium, do not adjust feed price if bitCNY premium is in this interval.

this poll will be regarded successful if it get more voting weight than 1.14.119


(2) only in case of premium imho...

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2018, 12:15:42 pm »
as some time ago the voting power that oppose BSIP42 overcome that support BSIP42, most of the witnesses return to feed just market price, immediately the BTS/bitCNY price fall about 8%, although more margin call orders are eaten, but:

1. price fall continue, bitCNY holders seems to wait for lower price, no big will to eat current margin call orders.

2. bitCNY has a premium of about 10%, it's a disaster for bitCNY business.

3.more debt position margin called, not obvious margin call quantity reduction.

actually witnesses need to be careful while doing a big change, it is not a good behavior to just change while seeing the voting result - no one host/claim/announce the voting activity, it is likely that some balance owner change lead to this result, please be careful while seeing this!

here I propose to restart BSIP42, with adding some new logic:

1.add the black swan protection logic, ensure feed price >global settlement price*1.11

2.ensure feed price > market price.

3.ensure feed price < market price*MSSR

4. if 1 conflict with 3, ignore 3.

5.tolerate a -2%-1% premium, do not adjust feed price if bitCNY premium is in this interval.

this poll will be regarded successful if it get more voting weight than 1.14.119


(2) only in case of premium imho...

actually in Chinese community there's a lot complaints against the fact that feed price can be lower than market price, some think this hurt them by margin calling a debt position with enough collateral.

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2018, 12:17:07 pm »
woker 1.14.140 created, kindly vote if you support this.

Online zhouxiaobao

Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2018, 12:49:04 pm »
agree

Offline xixi002020

Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2018, 12:53:49 pm »
agree 

Offline lovegan007

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2018, 01:02:00 pm »
我觉得下跌采用负反馈,上涨采用最高价,并且废除黑天鹅机制。

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2018, 01:06:31 pm »
Voted! +5% +5%
Please Vote for My Witness: Bangzi
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Offline liondani

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2018, 01:15:14 pm »
Quote
1.price fall continue, bitCNY holders seems to wait for lower price, no big will to eat current margin call orders.

That is just speculation... Nobody can guarantee they will not eat current margin. Actually I personally believe if you let the market free as possible it will happen in no time. Raise MSSR to 20% for start and then you will see how margin will get eaten!


PS and maybe the market just speculate that the market will continue to be bearish , and has nothing to do with BTS specifically ....
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 01:18:23 pm by liondani »
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Offline Crypto Kong

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2018, 01:17:14 pm »
Fractional reserve CNY here we come!

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2018, 01:21:14 pm »
Quote
1.price fall continue, bitCNY holders seems to wait for lower price, no big will to eat current margin call orders.

That is just speculation... Nobody can guarantee they will not eat current margin. Actually I personally believe if you let the market free as possible it will happen in no time. Raise MSSR to 20% for start and then you will see how margin will get eaten!

yes, some more margin order will be eaten, and people can buy cheaper BTS in DEX, BTS price in CEX will fall, and then feed price will become lower, more debt position margin called, bitCNY will be in higher premium - this is positive feedback, we have seen similar process before 719 hard fork, unfortunately we now see this again. we have better way to revive the whole ecosystem.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 01:22:49 pm by bitcrab »

Offline liondani

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2018, 01:36:30 pm »
Quote
1.price fall continue, bitCNY holders seems to wait for lower price, no big will to eat current margin call orders.

That is just speculation... Nobody can guarantee they will not eat current margin. Actually I personally believe if you let the market free as possible it will happen in no time. Raise MSSR to 20% for start and then you will see how margin will get eaten!

yes, some more margin order will be eaten, and people can buy cheaper BTS in DEX, BTS price in CEX will fall, and then feed price will become lower, more debt position margin called, bitCNY will be in higher premium - this is positive feedback, we have seen similar process before 719 hard fork, unfortunately we now see this again. we have better way to revive the whole ecosystem.

I think the mistake is to force-revive a market in a manipulative way. At least that would think and believe a observer. You already see how the community things about it. In the long term we would loose confidence from investors...  I think the best solution is to let the markets as free as possible and the price feed represent the reality (market price)


Quote
BTS price in CEX will fall

How are we so sure? Just from past behaviour ?
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Offline liondani

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2018, 01:41:31 pm »
What about raising MSSR to 20% and decreasing MCR to 1.50 for start... ?  The market should revive MUCH easier.



PS Or temporary decrease MCR to 1.3 to insta-revive ... am I missing something?
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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2018, 01:50:37 pm »
agree

Offline JonnyB

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2018, 01:51:54 pm »
What about raising MSSR to 20% and decreasing MCR to 1.50 for start... ?  The market should revive MUCH easier.



PS Or temporary decrease MCR to 1.3 to insta-revive ... am I missing something?

I agree that the MSSR should raised to at least 20% maybe higher so that margin calls are bought more promptly.
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Offline binggo

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2018, 01:55:21 pm »
Raising MSSR to 120% is not a good idea, the 110%MSSR is a problem already, raising MSSR can't solve any problems.

how about raising MSSR to 200%, if someone these can solve all the problems?!

The shock therapy in RUSSIA is not what we need now, so we need the updated BSIP42.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 01:59:15 pm by binggo »

Offline liondani

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Offline liondani

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2018, 02:01:00 pm »
Raising MSSR to 120% is not a good idea, the 110%MSSR is a problem already, raising MSSR can't solve any problems.

The shock therapy in RUSSIA is not what we need now, so we need the updated BSIP42.

It sure can! It will "force" the less collaterized  positions to add more collateral to avoid the "penalty", and it will induce more borrowers to participate to buy cheaper bts from the margin called positions ...
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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2018, 02:04:31 pm »
Fractional reserve CNY here we come!

THIS ^^^

Practically it is. And that would be bad publicity for bitshares.
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Offline binggo

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2018, 02:10:56 pm »
Raising MSSR to 120% is not a good idea, the 110%MSSR is a problem already, raising MSSR can't solve any problems.

The shock therapy in RUSSIA is not what we need now, so we need the updated BSIP42.

It sure can! It will "force" the less collaterized  positions to add more collateral to avoid the "penalty", and it will induce more borrowers to participate to buy cheaper bts from the margin called positions ...

.....

how you think it sure can?! why MSSR is 110% not 120% or 150%? don't think something so simple.

The problem is not the BSIP42, no BSIP42, the bitusd still will be black swan in these sharp fall.

Do you think 120% MSSR will save bitusd? or 150% MSSR will save bitusd?

What happend to BITBTC? 120% or 150% can save BITBTC?  The BITBTC have BSIP42?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 02:14:00 pm by binggo »

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2018, 04:21:59 pm »
agree

Offline Thul3

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2018, 05:33:50 pm »
Even i'm an enemy of BSIP42 at current situation I temporarly support bitcrabs proposal for the good of the community till the bug is fixed to implement the other solution proposed by Stefan or till the MCR recovers.

Quote
That is just speculation... Nobody can guarantee they will not eat current margin.

It depends who is buying the margin.People buying margin to increase their stacke will definetly not decrease the price of BTS however giving the opportunity on such a big sell wall for arbitrage it would at current situation automaticly mean that people would buy cheap BTS at DEX to dump it on CEX with a profit which would lead to a price fall and creating bitcny with a 10% (MSSR)premium.
 
Making sure what bitcrab proposed to always have margin call price under real price feed (hopefully 1,5-2%) is a fair solution.It won't get the margin so quickly eaten but it will also not have a big negativ effect on BTS price on CEX.

What is important and which clockwork also mentioned on another thread is the quick update of the margin call price in a quick downfall so the open margin calls will eat the open buy orders instead of traders taking them away
« Last Edit: November 29, 2018, 06:03:07 pm by Thul3 »

Offline alt

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2018, 08:46:12 pm »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)

Offline Thul3

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2018, 09:20:18 pm »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)


Supporting it !

Offline binggo

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2018, 11:16:33 pm »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)

i think this is not the good time to reduce MSSR to 2%,maybe need to wait the market change to well.

Offline finn-bts

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2018, 01:44:16 am »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)
I think the BSIP42 this time is just an emergency plan, and there will be a better solution later.

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2018, 01:45:53 am »
Even i'm an enemy of BSIP42 at current situation I temporarly support bitcrabs proposal for the good of the community till the bug is fixed to implement the other solution proposed by Stefan or till the MCR recovers.

Quote
That is just speculation... Nobody can guarantee they will not eat current margin.

It depends who is buying the margin.People buying margin to increase their stacke will definetly not decrease the price of BTS however giving the opportunity on such a big sell wall for arbitrage it would at current situation automaticly mean that people would buy cheap BTS at DEX to dump it on CEX with a profit which would lead to a price fall and creating bitcny with a 10% (MSSR)premium.
 
Making sure what bitcrab proposed to always have margin call price under real price feed (hopefully 1,5-2%) is a fair solution.It won't get the margin so quickly eaten but it will also not have a big negativ effect on BTS price on CEX.

What is important and which clockwork also mentioned on another thread is the quick update of the margin call price in a quick downfall so the open margin calls will eat the open buy orders instead of traders taking them away
Your decision is wise, thank you.

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2018, 02:40:57 am »
Even i'm an enemy of BSIP42 at current situation I temporarly support bitcrabs proposal for the good of the community till the bug is fixed to implement the other solution proposed by Stefan or till the MCR recovers.

Quote
That is just speculation... Nobody can guarantee they will not eat current margin.

It depends who is buying the margin.People buying margin to increase their stacke will definetly not decrease the price of BTS however giving the opportunity on such a big sell wall for arbitrage it would at current situation automaticly mean that people would buy cheap BTS at DEX to dump it on CEX with a profit which would lead to a price fall and creating bitcny with a 10% (MSSR)premium.
 
Making sure what bitcrab proposed to always have margin call price under real price feed (hopefully 1,5-2%) is a fair solution.It won't get the margin so quickly eaten but it will also not have a big negativ effect on BTS price on CEX.

What is important and which clockwork also mentioned on another thread is the quick update of the margin call price in a quick downfall so the open margin calls will eat the open buy orders instead of traders taking them away

thanks for understanding

Offline liondani

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2018, 03:06:21 am »
Quote
What is important and which clockwork also mentioned on another thread is the quick update of the margin call price in a quick downfall so the open margin calls will eat the open buy orders instead of traders taking them away

If that can happen then bitcrabs proposal makes much more sense.
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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2018, 03:18:37 am »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)
I think the BSIP42 this time is just an emergency plan, and there will be a better solution later.
I don't understand why we need this temporary complex way when we just need to simple reduce the MSSR.
As my observation, it's already a very difficult task for those witness to give a reasonable real market price.
You should never  expect more from them.
We must limited the power from them or they will screw up again.

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2018, 03:51:34 am »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)
I think the BSIP42 this time is just an emergency plan, and there will be a better solution later.
I don't understand why we need this temporary complex way when we just need to simple reduce the MSSR.
As my observation, it's already a very difficult task for those witness to give a reasonable real market price.
You should never  expect more from them.
We must limited the power from them or they will screw up again.

we learned a lot in the long painful process.

if what we want is just increase the price of the stayed margin call orders, the 2 ways really have similar impact, after that margin call orders being eaten, they have different impacts:

1. raise BTS feed price can increase bitCNY supply, tuning MSSR does not.

2. dynamically tuning feed price include the negative feedback logic that can help peg, setting a fixed MSSR value does not.

we design complex solution because the world is complex.

I know that you do not like BSIP42, however this time I am proposing an updated version, it limit the feed price not higher to market price*MSSR to avoid that margin call orders stay their without being eaten, it limit the feed price not lower than market price to avoid unreasonable margin calling. I believe this remove the impacts that you dislike.

however this is still a temporary solution, later some new solution will be discussed sufficiently to replace this one, it should include:

1. dynamic MCR
2. new measure to handle black swan that do not stop borrowing.
3. MSSR change

I understand that we cannot make bitCNY a stable coin that always own sufficient collateral, good pegging and sufficient supply, but we have chance to reach a point that is close to that point, and that really need careful design.

hope you can understand and help in the process.

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2018, 04:06:35 am »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)
I think the BSIP42 this time is just an emergency plan, and there will be a better solution later.
I don't understand why we need this temporary complex way when we just need to simple reduce the MSSR.
As my observation, it's already a very difficult task for those witness to give a reasonable real market price.
You should never  expect more from them.
We must limited the power from them or they will screw up again.

we learned a lot in the long painful process.

if what we want is just increase the price of the stayed margin call orders, the 2 ways really have similar impact, after that margin call orders being eaten, they have different impacts:

1. raise BTS feed price can increase bitCNY supply, tuning MSSR does not.

2. dynamically tuning feed price include the negative feedback logic that can help peg, setting a fixed MSSR value does not.

we design complex solution because the world is complex.

I know that you do not like BSIP42, however this time I am proposing an updated version, it limit the feed price not higher to market price*MSSR to avoid that margin call orders stay their without being eaten, it limit the feed price not lower than market price to avoid unreasonable margin calling. I believe this remove the impacts that you dislike.

however this is still a temporary solution, later some new solution will be discussed sufficiently to replace this one, it should include:

1. dynamic MCR
2. new measure to handle black swan that do not stop borrowing.
3. MSSR change

I understand that we cannot make bitCNY a stable coin that always own sufficient collateral, good pegging and sufficient supply, but we have chance to reach a point that is close to that point, and that really need careful design.

hope you can understand and help in the process.
why don't we improve step by step?
I guess reduce MSSR will be more easy to reach the concenses.
But dynamic tuning the MCR is not acceptable for me,  at least you need to give enough time to the shorters before adjustment the MCR.
you just can't make me margin call when you decide to increase the MCR next seconds. I consider this as   manipulation.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2018, 04:50:37 am by alt »

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2018, 05:15:10 am »
why don't we improve step by step?
I guess reduce MSSR will be more easy to reach the concenses.
But dynamic tuning the MCR is not acceptable for me,  at least you need to give enough time to the shorters before adjustment the MCR.
you just can't make me margin call when you decide to increase the MCR next seconds. I consider this as   manipulation.

I understand that letting witness tune MCR introduce much uncertainty, so now in my mind it will be better if we can do this in another way, like:

1.witnesses just feed market price and premium.

2.system tune MCR periodically based on the fed premium, for example the rule can be: system adjust MCR every hour, if premium is inside -2%-1%, do not adjust the MCR, otherwise, tune it 0.001(start point 1.75) to according direction. 

maybe need to set max and min limit on MCR, for example 1.25-2.

however I am not sure whether this is technological possible and whether community can reach consensus on this.


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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2018, 09:26:12 am »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)
I think the BSIP42 this time is just an emergency plan, and there will be a better solution later.
I don't understand why we need this temporary complex way when we just need to simple reduce the MSSR.
As my observation, it's already a very difficult task for those witness to give a reasonable real market price.
You should never  expect more from them.
We must limited the power from them or they will screw up again.

we learned a lot in the long painful process.

if what we want is just increase the price of the stayed margin call orders, the 2 ways really have similar impact, after that margin call orders being eaten, they have different impacts:

1. raise BTS feed price can increase bitCNY supply, tuning MSSR does not.
The difference is simple: increased bitCNY supply with same amount of collateral means lower collateral ratio thus higher risk, especially when in a downtrend. It's just impossible to meet all requirements / expectations.


Quote

2. dynamically tuning feed price include the negative feedback logic that can help peg, setting a fixed MSSR value does not.

we design complex solution because the world is complex.

I know that you do not like BSIP42, however this time I am proposing an updated version, it limit the feed price not higher to market price*MSSR to avoid that margin call orders stay their without being eaten, it limit the feed price not lower than market price to avoid unreasonable margin calling. I believe this remove the impacts that you dislike.

however this is still a temporary solution, later some new solution will be discussed sufficiently to replace this one, it should include:

1. dynamic MCR
2. new measure to handle black swan that do not stop borrowing.
3. MSSR change

I understand that we cannot make bitCNY a stable coin that always own sufficient collateral, good pegging and sufficient supply, but we have chance to reach a point that is close to that point, and that really need careful design.

hope you can understand and help in the process.
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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2018, 08:17:48 am »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)

I support reduce MSSR to 5%.

  • The simpler the rule, the more robust it is. Simply adjusting MSSR has fewer variables affecting the market.
  • MSSR reduced from 10% to 5%, the number of BTS sold by closed margin postions will be reduced by 5%, and there is still 5% arbitrage space between CEX and DEX.
  • At present, the application scenario of stable-currency is used by digital currency investors to hedge against the market when they fall. For hedging, 5% volatility is not unacceptable. We need precise anchoring only for payment.
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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2018, 12:07:27 pm »
Even though I am not convinced this approach will work, I support this as a temporary meassure until we can use the MCR more dynamically.
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Offline alt

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2018, 12:34:21 pm »
you guys really don't realize how critical  this manipulation will result.
A very simple example, when a potential buyer(buy BTS with CNY) known there is a posibble the margin call order will lower than 10%,
he will just stop buy until it reach.
And a potential seller(sell CNY for fiat CNY) will stop sell CNY for even 5% profit, instead they will wait for 10% profit.
The results is that traders don't known what will happen next, they just stop and wait.

Offline alt

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2018, 12:37:33 pm »
I support reduce MSSR to 2% instead of any complex feed price adjustment(manipulation)

I support reduce MSSR to 5%.

  • The simpler the rule, the more robust it is. Simply adjusting MSSR has fewer variables affecting the market.
  • MSSR reduced from 10% to 5%, the number of BTS sold by closed margin postions will be reduced by 5%, and there is still 5% arbitrage space between CEX and DEX.
  • At present, the application scenario of stable-currency is used by digital currency investors to hedge against the market when they fall. For hedging, 5% volatility is not unacceptable. We need precise anchoring only for payment.
Yes, I accept any MSSR value between 2% and 10%.
the best way is to announce reduce step by step from 10%, this can help encourage people eatern the margin call orders.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2018, 12:40:14 pm by alt »

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2018, 12:45:53 pm »
Why do you support if you don't understand how this will work?
are you paly baby game again?

Even though I am not convinced this approach will work, I support this as a temporary meassure until we can use the MCR more dynamically.

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2018, 12:47:03 pm »
you guys really don't realize how critical  this manipulation will result.
A very simple example, when a potential buyer(buy BTS with CNY) known there is a posibble the margin call order will lower than 10%,
he will just stop buy until it reach.
And a potential seller(sell CNY for fiat CNY) will stop sell CNY for even 5% profit, instead they will wait for 10% profit.
The results is that traders don't known what will happen next, they just stop and wait.

if this poll get more support than 1.4.119, trader will know that bitCNY will not have a 10% premium, they know what to do.
maybe bitCNY holders will regret to lose chance to buy cheaper BTS, but it benefit the whole ecosystem as BTS need not to reach lower price and traders need not to suffer high premium of bitCNY.
this method is far from perfect, hope you can participate more in the discussion of the alternative solution of BSIP42.

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2018, 12:53:39 pm »

you guys really don't realize how critical  this manipulation will result.
A very simple example, when a potential buyer(buy BTS with CNY) known there is a posibble the margin call order will lower than 10%,
he will just stop buy until it reach.
And a potential seller(sell CNY for fiat CNY) will stop sell CNY for even 5% profit, instead they will wait for 10% profit.
The results is that traders don't known what will happen next, they just stop and wait.

if this poll get more support than 1.4.119, trader will know that bitCNY will not have a 10% premium, they know what to do.
maybe bitCNY holders will regret to lose chance to buy cheaper BTS, but it benefit the whole ecosystem as BTS need not to reach lower price and traders need not to suffer high premium of bitCNY.
this method is far from perfect, hope you can participate more in the discussion of the alternative solution of BSIP42.
I will not regard the price as 0.35 CNY when I known the witness can change the price back to 0.32 CNY at anytime.
so what's the point of increase the feed price to 0.35CNY? did it really  increase the supply?

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2018, 02:51:27 pm »
I will not regard the price as 0.35 CNY when I known the witness can change the price back to 0.32 CNY at anytime.
so what's the point of increase the feed price to 0.35CNY? did it really  increase the supply?

higher feed price/lower MCR means user can borrow more bitCNY with the same collateral.that's how it increase the supply.

witnesses has the logic that feed price depending on the market price and premium, not to feed price at will.

 

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2018, 08:14:36 pm »
I will not regard the price as 0.35 CNY when I known the witness can change the price back to 0.32 CNY at anytime.
so what's the point of increase the feed price to 0.35CNY? did it really  increase the supply?

higher feed price/lower MCR means user can borrow more bitCNY with the same collateral.that's how it increase the supply.

witnesses has the logic that feed price depending on the market price and premium, not to feed price at will.
Imagine the national adjust the interest rate dynamic, totally free to increase or reduce, whatever if they have the logic or not.
The rate could increase today while decrease tomorrow.
would you still regard reduce rate as stimulate the economy? would you borrow more when you don't known if they will increase the rate again next second?

whatever adjust the feed price or MCR, the problem is a normal rational trader should not consider reduce MCR as they can borrow more safely.
In fact, it only affect to those risk short position which is very close or already margin call.
Do you wish to encourage them borrow more or decrease the debt ?

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2018, 07:10:53 am »
Imagine the national adjust the interest rate dynamic, totally free to increase or reduce, whatever if they have the logic or not.
The rate could increase today while decrease tomorrow.
would you still regard reduce rate as stimulate the economy? would you borrow more when you don't known if they will increase the rate again next second?

I haven't seen any serious central bank has reduce interest rate first and increase rate at the next second, interest rate is an important tool for central bank to push the currency policy.

whatever adjust the feed price or MCR, the problem is a normal rational trader should not consider reduce MCR as they can borrow more safely.
In fact, it only affect to those risk short position which is very close or already margin call.
Do you wish to encourage them borrow more or decrease the debt ?

whether borrowing is safe not only depend on the market, but also on the rule.
one simple example/logic: at the time that bitCNY is in high premium as of now, when MCR is reduced, one can borrow say 100K bitCNY and get 102K CNY, when premium go down to -1%, MCR return to high level, he can buy 103KbitCNY with 102KCNY, pay the 100K debt and get 3K as profit.

does this business make sense? yes, one can make profit with it, and help to balance the ecosystem.

why not encourage this kind of business?

« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 07:12:37 am by bitcrab »

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2018, 08:55:42 am »
Imagine the national adjust the interest rate dynamic, totally free to increase or reduce, whatever if they have the logic or not.
The rate could increase today while decrease tomorrow.
would you still regard reduce rate as stimulate the economy? would you borrow more when you don't known if they will increase the rate again next second?

I haven't seen any serious central bank has reduce interest rate first and increase rate at the next second, interest rate is an important tool for central bank to push the currency policy.
so why witness can decrease MCR today while increase tomorrow even without an previous anouncement? MCR is even more important than interest rate. it can make margin call happen directely without price change.
If MCR unstable like this, could you regard decrease MCR as a safe signal to borrow more money?
Quote
whatever adjust the feed price or MCR, the problem is a normal rational trader should not consider reduce MCR as they can borrow more safely.
In fact, it only affect to those risk short position which is very close or already margin call.
Do you wish to encourage them borrow more or decrease the debt ?

whether borrowing is safe not only depend on the market, but also on the rule.
one simple example/logic: at the time that bitCNY is in high premium as of now, when MCR is reduced, one can borrow say 100K bitCNY and get 102K CNY, when premium go down to -1%, MCR return to high level, he can buy 103KbitCNY with 102KCNY, pay the 100K debt and get 3K as profit.

does this business make sense? yes, one can make profit with it, and help to balance the ecosystem.

why not encourage this kind of business?
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 08:59:38 am by alt »

Offline bitcrab

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2018, 09:22:25 am »
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.

can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?

I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.

the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2018, 09:46:40 am »
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.

can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?

I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.

the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.
As a trader, I don't care if you can manipulate the price or not.
All I known is that my debt could be margin call even when the price of BTS increase.
Why I need to take this risk? 
You have a good expect, but nobody will play with your in this market rule.

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2018, 09:52:19 am »
Support for gradual reduction of MSSR Until 105%

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2018, 09:58:31 am »
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.

can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?

I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.

the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.
As a trader, I don't care if you can manipulate the price or not.
All I known is that my debt could be margin call even when the price of BTS increase.
Why I need to take this risk? 
You have a good expect, but nobody will play with your in this market rule.

Those were my thoughts as well which is why I suggested limiting the possible dynamic movement of MCR/MSSR.

If you know that MCR will NEVER go above 2.0 for example, you just keep it over 2.0 and be just as safe.

A brief/rough description is here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=27360.msg324958#msg324958

Offline Thom

Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2018, 06:06:35 pm »
why don't we improve step by step?
I guess reduce MSSR will be more easy to reach the concenses.
But dynamic tuning the MCR is not acceptable for me,  at least you need to give enough time to the shorters before adjustment the MCR.
you just can't make me margin call when you decide to increase the MCR next seconds. I consider this as   manipulation.

I understand that letting witness tune MCR introduce much uncertainty, so now in my mind it will be better if we can do this in another way, like:

1.witnesses just feed market price and premium.

2.system tune MCR periodically based on the fed premium, for example the rule can be: system adjust MCR every hour, if premium is inside -2%-1%, do not adjust the MCR, otherwise, tune it 0.001(start point 1.75) to according direction. 

maybe need to set max and min limit on MCR, for example 1.25-2.

however I am not sure whether this is technological possible and whether community can reach consensus on this.

This sounds like the most reasonable proposal I've seen from you @bitcrab:
- it requires honest market price reporting
- it sets limits on MCR adjustment
- preserves baseline collateral at 1.75

Clearly trade-offs are required between various "feed factions" that want their advantage / opinions implemented. This is easier to understand, easier for witnesses. Will it work?

Depends on the goals you have. We need to define those, otherwise we'll all vacillate between appeasing one camp or another.
Main things we need to define is what is minimum safety - i.e. absolute limits on MCR and how tight the peg must be held.
Another consideration is do we need to define different sets of limits when market is "volatile", and how to define what metrics to use to say market is volatile. You could define criteria that sets a boolean "isVolatile" flag, or, it could be an analog value from 0 (stable) to 1 (volatile). Perhaps this is same or similar to what is now labeled "premium". Can't say I understand how "premium" is calculated and what factors are involved. 

Also, why not publish a report to describe all this great knowledge learned from experimentation so we ALL can learn? Still waiting on that. If you've learned so much please summarize these "golden lessons" for those of us with lessor economic skills. Please help raise our understanding with a summary.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere - MLK |  Verbaltech2 Witness Reports: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23902.0.html

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2018, 09:05:45 pm »
Variable MCR (1.5-2) should result in less margin calls. MCR of 1.25 is too low for the market.

After a price drop we can lower the MCR to 1.5 and reduce premiums, after a price rise the premium should get lower and MCR can rise without getting additional margin calls. 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 09:14:38 pm by bench »

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2018, 11:57:32 pm »
I didn't see any point to  get profit from it, if you have you should do it.
As a trader I will never borrow a cent  if you can make me margin call without  price of BTS change, sometimes even when BTS price increase.

can I manipulate the feed price at will? or any witness can? if I can why I let my accounts be margin called?

I understand that because bsip42 let witnesses feed price following a complex logic, it introduce some uncertainty that make traders do not feel good, so in the newly advised alternative solution witnesses only feed price and premium data, which are easy to verify accurate or not, the negative feedback logic will be done by the system in a low frequency.

the system need negative feedback logic, the rule of original system is far from satisfactory and cannot sustain the dream of Bitshares. and I don't think we can call DEX free market only when we make no change to the rules.
As a trader, I don't care if you can manipulate the price or not.
All I known is that my debt could be margin call even when the price of BTS increase.
Why I need to take this risk? 
You have a good expect, but nobody will play with your in this market rule.

Those were my thoughts as well which is why I suggested limiting the possible dynamic movement of MCR/MSSR.

If you know that MCR will NEVER go above 2.0 for example, you just keep it over 2.0 and be just as safe.

A brief/rough description is here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=27360.msg324958#msg324958
But if people just keep it over 2.0, what's the meaning of reduse MCR to 1.75/1.5? Did reduce MCR really increase the supply?
For a rational trader, they have their own reasonable leverage which must bigger than the highest MCR  which are allowed to use.
only those high risk debt could be affected by MCR, they will borrow as more as possible, then there is a high possibility they will lose everything.
Should we and can we increase the supply by these high risk debts?
In general, I still hold the view that we just need a stable MCR, if we really need to adjustment, an announcemant several days in advance should be given.

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Re: [worker proposal] - Poll on implementing updated BSIP42 on bitCNY
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2018, 12:04:43 am »
another fact I need to talk is that the improved algorithm of margin call(sell part)  make the sell smooth, this can encourage people buy margin call order, reduce the blackswan risk.
the lower MCR given, the low effect from this new alogrithm. it will totally lose effect when MCR reduce to 1.