Author Topic: How to make Bitshares mineable while creating buying pressure  (Read 26621 times)

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Offline JA

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To get a idea of what a multipool is check out

https://hashco.ws/
and
http://www.middlecoin.com/

and https://www.multipool.us/
they just mining them and don't selling them into btc
but they have sha256 too
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 06:56:44 pm by jabbajabba »


Offline fuzzy

Doesn't mining almost certainly centralize the issuance of tokens?  I mean, sure, anyone can "mine", but only a very few people will be able to do so profitably, and those people will not necessarily be dictated by their technical skills...but more by their connections to ASICs manufacturers.  And, if in the next 10-20 years the mining of all these tokens becomes centralized how is that system going to be any better for the common man than the current centrally-controlled one? I personally think it would be worse due to the fact that the necessary level of technical skills that would be required to fight against it would largely make this impossible.

The only way I can see mining as being worthwhile is if it utilizes something like the BOINC protocol, which makes the mining perform a task that serves to benefit all humanity (protein folding, searching for extraterrestrial life...etc)...but that still wouldn't fix the centralization issues. 

The reason for this is that even though you might have 30 different ASICs to choose from in order to mine the algo of your choice, it still is centralized to those 30 algos (unless we are looking at a world where a couple thousand algos and 10's of thousands of ASICs manufacturers exist).

Perhaps I am incorrect, but transactions as proof of stake seems to allow people to purchase tokens (or mine them through PTS--including multipool mining PTS), and as stake holders, automatically have the ability to largely overcome the centralization that would otherwise occur. Why?  because I could go work as a waiter somewhere and turn that proof of work (tips) into PTS through an exchange purchase, which gives a larger number of non-techies the ability to meaningfully contribute to the ecosystem. 

I understand that mining is a huge deal to people, but if we want this to become a BROADLY accepted tech, it has to be available to everyone interested in it.  Why would we ever want to change the Gatekeepers of the banking cartels to instead be mining cartels? 

Interested to hear responses.
It has no centralizing impact on bitshares just on the most profitable to mine coin and only at the moment it is profitable to mine it

thats why people mine altcoins mostly, to get more Bitcoin in the long run (or in my case Bitshares :))

Thanks for the explanation man.  Lately my time has been pretty divided between projects (the newborn infant project is proving quite time-consuming!) so it is a bit more difficult to keep up.

Still interested in if/how BOINC can be implemented though.
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Offline JA

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Doesn't mining almost certainly centralize the issuance of tokens?  I mean, sure, anyone can "mine", but only a very few people will be able to do so profitably, and those people will not necessarily be dictated by their technical skills...but more by their connections to ASICs manufacturers.  And, if in the next 10-20 years the mining of all these tokens becomes centralized how is that system going to be any better for the common man than the current centrally-controlled one? I personally think it would be worse due to the fact that the necessary level of technical skills that would be required to fight against it would largely make this impossible.

The only way I can see mining as being worthwhile is if it utilizes something like the BOINC protocol, which makes the mining perform a task that serves to benefit all humanity (protein folding, searching for extraterrestrial life...etc)...but that still wouldn't fix the centralization issues. 

The reason for this is that even though you might have 30 different ASICs to choose from in order to mine the algo of your choice, it still is centralized to those 30 algos (unless we are looking at a world where a couple thousand algos and 10's of thousands of ASICs manufacturers exist).

Perhaps I am incorrect, but transactions as proof of stake seems to allow people to purchase tokens (or mine them through PTS--including multipool mining PTS), and as stake holders, automatically have the ability to largely overcome the centralization that would otherwise occur. Why?  because I could go work as a waiter somewhere and turn that proof of work (tips) into PTS through an exchange purchase, which gives a larger number of non-techies the ability to meaningfully contribute to the ecosystem. 

I understand that mining is a huge deal to people, but if we want this to become a BROADLY accepted tech, it has to be available to everyone interested in it.  Why would we ever want to change the Gatekeepers of the banking cartels to instead be mining cartels? 

Interested to hear responses.
It has no centralizing impact on bitshares just on the most profitable to mine coin and only at the moment it is profitable to mine it

thats why people mine altcoins mostly, to get more Bitcoin in the long run (or in my case Bitshares :))
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 06:32:20 pm by jabbajabba »

Offline fuzzy

Doesn't mining almost certainly centralize the issuance of tokens?  I mean, sure, anyone can "mine", but only a very few people will be able to do so profitably, and those people will not necessarily be dictated by their technical skills...but more by their connections to ASICs manufacturers.  And, if in the next 10-20 years the mining of all these tokens becomes centralized how is that system going to be any better for the common man than the current centrally-controlled one? I personally think it would be worse due to the fact that the necessary level of technical skills that would be required to fight against it would largely make this impossible.

The only way I can see mining as being worthwhile is if it utilizes something like the BOINC protocol, which makes the mining perform a task that serves to benefit all humanity (protein folding, searching for extraterrestrial life...etc)...but that still wouldn't fix the centralization issues. 

The reason for this is that even though you might have 30 different ASICs to choose from in order to mine the algo of your choice, it still is centralized to those 30 algos--unless we are looking at a world where a couple thousand algos and 10's of thousands of ASICs manufacturers exist.  Even with this, though, what is stopping ASIC manufacturers from colluding to centralize manufacturing into the hands of a few?

Perhaps I am incorrect, but transactions as proof of stake seems to allow people to purchase tokens (or mine them through PTS--including multipool mining PTS), and as stake holders, be paid for processing the tx's and getting rewarded in that way.  This seems far better as it gives anyone ability to largely overcome the centralization that would otherwise occur. Why?  because I could go work as a waiter somewhere and turn that proof of work (tips) into PTS through an exchange purchase, which gives a larger number of non-techies the ability to meaningfully contribute to the ecosystem. 

I understand that mining is a huge deal to people, but if we want this to become a BROADLY accepted tech, it has to be available to everyone interested in it.  Why would we ever want to change the Gatekeepers of the banking cartels to instead be mining cartels? 

Interested to hear responses.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 06:30:12 pm by fuznuts »
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Offline valtr

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Some additional effects of this process which I neglected to mention.

1. It is hardware and algorithm agnostic.

The algorithm used for Proof of Work is separated from the payout reward. So you could mine with any kind of Proof of Work at the mining pool, CPU, GPU, ASIC, any hashing algorithm, it simply does not matter. The only thing that matters is that whatever you mine can be traded so that it can go *your mining* -> BTC -> BTS.

2. It's decentralizing.

It would make BTS more decentralized because anyone could mine any coin on any hardware and get BTS payout. This broad distribution of BTS markets BTS better than any possible advertisement could. Some superior CPU altcoin could come out, people could mine that and fill up their Bitshares wallet.
3. It encourages BTS to be used as the ultimate store of value.

In times of bubbles, BTS will go to the moon. In bear markets, BTS will be the ultimate place to store value (far better than Bitcoin). So in either situation it makes the most sense to mine whatever but store your value in BTS. If we could set it up so a portion of people's paychecks went to BTS automatically it would have a similar effect.

P.S., I also think it would be cool if we could mine BTS on our solar powered cellphones.

 +5%

Offline luckybit

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Some additional effects of this process which I neglected to mention.

1. It is hardware and algorithm agnostic.

The algorithm used for Proof of Work is separated from the payout reward. So you could mine with any kind of Proof of Work at the mining pool, CPU, GPU, ASIC, any hashing algorithm, it simply does not matter. The only thing that matters is that whatever you mine can be traded so that it can go *your mining* -> BTC -> BTS.

2. It's decentralizing.

It would make BTS more decentralized because anyone could mine any coin on any hardware and get BTS payout. This broad distribution of BTS is what markets BTS better than any possible advertisement could. Some superior CPU altcoin could come out, people could mine that and fill up their Bitshares wallet.

3. It encourages BTS to be used as the ultimate store of value.

In times of bubbles, BTS will go to the moon. In bear markets, BTS will be the ultimate place to store value (far better than Bitcoin). So in either situation it makes the most sense to mine whatever but store your value in BTS. If we could set it up so a portion of people's paychecks went to BTS automatically it would have a similar effect.

4. Tax benefits, since you're not trading different cryptocurrencies for each other the taxes would be less on individual traders. The mining pool would pay the taxes instead. The mining pool would be able to profit by charging a fee in BTS and this could be used to pay for operating expenses including any taxes they must pay.

P.S., I also think it would be cool if we could mine BTS on our solar powered cellphones.

« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 04:40:12 pm by luckybit »
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Offline CryptoN8

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This solves the problem of Bitshares not being mineable

 :'(
Correct me if I'm wrong about the concept, but aren't we talking about mining PoW chain(s) and getting paid via PoS?  :-\

One reason Bitshares isn't popular on Bitcointalk and other places compared to Ethereum and some of the alt coins is that miners seem to have been pissed off about the fact that Bitshares isn't minable. Mining is a subculture and the mining faction apparently is the king maker when it comes to marketing new coins. They seem to make up the bulk of the traders on exchanges.

So you market directly to miners by allowing them to mine for Bitshares. It simultaneously markets Bitshares on a grass roots viral level, it allows people who have all this hashing power something to use it on and then they don't need Crypsy because they can just use Bitshares. Bitshares is a decentralized exchange and people who like to trade will want Bitshares and need a way to get them.

I have a mining rig, I'm sure many people here do. So while we can mine some other coin or Bitcoin and sell it for Bitshares on Cryptsy, when we get to Cryptsy it's like the shopper who walks into a supermarket. You end up seeing all these better deals then you forget you wanted Bitshares and end up trading some other more profitable stuff.

But if your mining pool pays out in Bitshares, you're more likely to just save the Bitshares in BitGold, or trade directly in the Bitshares client. You may even be able to automate the pool so it automatically fuels your Bitshares client. This would keep a continuous steady stream of Bitshares flowing into your Bitshares client and you wouldn't have to do anything.

The mining pool could display ads, a DAC index and other information to keep people in the trading mood and by stealth advertise Bitshares. When new DACs arrive ads on these multipool sites would reach the exact demographic you want.

Correct me if I'm wrong about the concept, but aren't we talking about mining PoW chain(s) and getting paid via PoS?  :-\

To answer your question. Sorta, but that is what everyone does anyway. How do you think people ended up buying the top coins on Coinmarketcap? They either mined it, or if it's Proof of Stake they have to buy it, often with profits from mining PoW chains.

This streamlines the process through automation. You just set your mining rig up and the BTS will flow into your wallet. The benefit to this is that the price of BTS wont go down because people will always be buying it. Bitshares is very hard to dump due to it's utility, but if no one tries it out no one discovers that utility.
Yes, us miners are a funky bunch. ::) I've been doing it since 2011 through all the advancements (CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC) and I can't see myself doing anything else hobby wise that intrigues my need to tinker and tune gear for optimal profit. Being in IT for 25+ I guess I fell into my element.

I really like this concept you are talking about. I myself would rather it be some type of P2Pool only mining, where miners just "plug in" with a central management client. You point all your various rigs at your client and that is where you manage rig stats & alerts, monitor earnings, plus handling exchanging, DAC integration plug-ins, etc. I would rather not have to deal with exchanges like we have to do today and be taxed more, nor the issues with a consolidation of hashing power in the hands of the most popular pool(s). Let's keep it decentralized.


Offline santaclause102

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So the idea is a mining pool that pays in BTS instead of in USD?

Offline luckybit

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This solves the problem of Bitshares not being mineable

 :'(
Correct me if I'm wrong about the concept, but aren't we talking about mining PoW chain(s) and getting paid via PoS?  :-\

One reason Bitshares isn't popular on Bitcointalk and other places compared to Ethereum and some of the alt coins is that miners seem to have been pissed off about the fact that Bitshares isn't minable. Mining is a subculture and the mining faction apparently is the king maker when it comes to marketing new coins. They seem to make up the bulk of the traders on exchanges.

So you market directly to miners by allowing them to mine for Bitshares. It simultaneously markets Bitshares on a grass roots viral level, it allows people who have all this hashing power something to use it on and then they don't need Crypsy because they can just use Bitshares. Bitshares is a decentralized exchange and people who like to trade will want Bitshares and need a way to get them.

I have a mining rig, I'm sure many people here do. So while we can mine some other coin or Bitcoin and sell it for Bitshares on Cryptsy, when we get to Cryptsy it's like the shopper who walks into a supermarket. You end up seeing all these better deals then you forget you wanted Bitshares and end up trading some other more profitable stuff.

But if your mining pool pays out in Bitshares, you're more likely to just save the Bitshares in BitGold, or trade directly in the Bitshares client. You may even be able to automate the pool so it automatically fuels your Bitshares client. This would keep a continuous steady stream of Bitshares flowing into your Bitshares client and you wouldn't have to do anything.

The mining pool could display ads, a DAC index and other information to keep people in the trading mood and by stealth advertise Bitshares. When new DACs arrive ads on these multipool sites would reach the exact demographic you want.

Correct me if I'm wrong about the concept, but aren't we talking about mining PoW chain(s) and getting paid via PoS?  :-\

To answer your question. Sorta, but that is what everyone does anyway. How do you think people ended up buying the top coins on Coinmarketcap? They either mined it, or if it's Proof of Stake they have to buy it, often with profits from mining PoW chains.

This streamlines the process through automation. You just set your mining rig up and the BTS will flow into your wallet. The benefit to this is that the price of BTS wont go down because people will always be buying it. Bitshares is very hard to dump due to it's utility, but if no one tries it out no one discovers that utility.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 02:09:29 am by luckybit »
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Offline CryptoN8

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This solves the problem of Bitshares not being mineable

 :'(
Correct me if I'm wrong about the concept, but aren't we talking about mining PoW chain(s) and getting paid via PoS?  :-\

Offline toast

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Offline HackFisher

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