NXT online wallet

[bluemeanie1]

I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

Just to be clear, Bitcoin is a DAC by our definition. Would you say your virtual corps and bitcoin are the same type of legal entity?

where is your definition stated?

[toast]

I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

Just to be clear, Bitcoin is a DAC by our definition. Would you say your virtual corps and bitcoin are the same type of legal entity?

[bluemeanie1]

I personally don't use DAC, I call it Virtual Corporations.  Others did apply this term to it, and it still seems to linger but I think at this point the distinctions are fairly clear.  The project is still in it's early stages so we're quickly working these things out.

Seems the primary difference here is that VCorps involve input from people, whereas DACs(in theory) operate automatically.  I still haven't seen any clear examples of how DACs can be used in real-world situations.

Not sure how the Virtual Corporations would have any different legal status than a DAC.  Perhaps you can explain your statement?

-bm

Biggest difference with the announced bitshares DACs (apart from maybe the music one) is that they are completely self-contained. This way the legal issues are circumvented for the moment, because there is no physical connection to the real world. People might be prepared to offer services for or interact with the DAC in trade for stake in or benefit from the use of it, but they are not really employed by or working for the DAC in the usual sense. Doesn't mean that won't happen in the future, but for the near future the DACs aren't physically stepping on toes just yet.

they also haven't left the drawing board?  I don't think you've established here or elsewhere that DACs have some sort of inherent legal advantage.  Seems most of these claims are speculative if not mythical.

It might very well be that I'm not grasping what your doing with Virtual Corporations, but it sounds a lot like a traditional corporation with employees and management and things like that. I also assume that your corporations are not aimed solely towards products/services entirely inside of the world of the blockchain. If your virtual corporations are not completely virtual and depend on employees, that will most likely lead to legal and government issues. It will in my neck of the woods at least. I wasn't trying to critique your project, but I do think you are taking the monster head on and I don't expect it to just roll over and die. I'm also interested into seeing your solutions and how those might work better or at least are able to compete effectively with traditional centralized corporations.

It's not clear to me how you can build something valuable out of some inert script on the blockchain?  You don't think that's going to be exploitable?

I ran across this yesterday, I found it hilarious: http://www.beetcoin.com/content/images/2014/Feb/BM_PTS_2.PNG

Personally, and that might just because of my own limitations, I'm not convinced everything works better on the blockchain and I'm a bit worried that a lot of people are engineering spectacular space-pens while not actually looking at practicality and simple solutions first. Might be because of my background and past experiences, that I'm on the skeptical side when looking at things like this. I found that getting people on the same page when they are physically present in the same room can be pretty damn challenging already, but lengthening communication lines added a whole new dimension to that challenge.

seems here you are trying to rebound some criticisms I made elsewhere of some other projects in this space.  There's nothing out-of-touch about VCorps, they offer a very useful tool that is entirely feasible to implement.

[JoeyD]

I personally don't use DAC, I call it Virtual Corporations.  Others did apply this term to it, and it still seems to linger but I think at this point the distinctions are fairly clear.  The project is still in it's early stages so we're quickly working these things out.

Seems the primary difference here is that VCorps involve input from people, whereas DACs(in theory) operate automatically.  I still haven't seen any clear examples of how DACs can be used in real-world situations.

Not sure how the Virtual Corporations would have any different legal status than a DAC.  Perhaps you can explain your statement?

-bm

Biggest difference with the announced bitshares DACs (apart from maybe the music one) is that they are completely self-contained. This way the legal issues are circumvented for the moment, because there is no physical connection to the real world. People might be prepared to offer services for or interact with the DAC in trade for stake in or benefit from the use of it, but they are not really employed by or working for the DAC in the usual sense. Doesn't mean that won't happen in the future, but for the near future the DACs aren't physically stepping on toes just yet.

It might very well be that I'm not grasping what your doing with Virtual Corporations, but it sounds a lot like a traditional corporation with employees and management and things like that. I also assume that your corporations are not aimed solely towards products/services entirely inside of the world of the blockchain. If your virtual corporations are not completely virtual and depend on employees, that will most likely lead to legal and government issues. It will in my neck of the woods at least. I wasn't trying to critique your project, but I do think you are taking the monster head on and I don't expect it to just roll over and die. I'm also interested into seeing your solutions and how those might work better or at least are able to compete effectively with traditional centralized corporations.

Personally, and that might just because of my own limitations, I'm not convinced everything works better on the blockchain and I'm a bit worried that a lot of people are engineering spectacular space-pens while not actually looking at practicality and simple solutions first. Might be because of my background and past experiences, that I'm on the skeptical side when looking at things like this. I found that getting people on the same page when they are physically present in the same room can be pretty damn challenging already, but lengthening communication lines added a whole new dimension to that challenge.

[santaclause102]

NXT is constantly releasing wallets because their network isn't stable.  It is hard to judge who is a winner by any stretch.

As far as the OP, I do know there are guys who have hashed phrase dictionaries and are waiting on the NXT network.  If a weak wallet appears they will jump in and transfer the NXT out within 1 minute.  It happened to me a few months ago when I made a test wallet with my real full name (Against the warnings of the wallet..).  Within 2 minutes, there was a blockchain transaction removing the money.  Actually I don't recall the timeframe exactly, and it didn't matter,  as I thought it was quite funny and wrote it off as a lesson learned. 

BTW I thought Bitshares was more about creating a DAC toolkit foundation, not trying to make the next cryptocurrency.  It is interesting how the expectations of users vary on here.

I guess you could build DACs using the NXT code as well. But asaik they have a bit a different understanding of DAC: https://nxtforum.org/nxt-improvement-proposals/virtual-corporations-on-nxt/?PHPSESSID=6dq4o5dfi7t1av12usj02t3nu1

hi delulo,

I'm heading off the Virtual Corp project.  The technology was meant to mimic real world corporations.

Not sure if Bitshares DACs have anything to offer over NXT Vcorps, but certainly I'm up to discuss.

-bm

I like the such discussions. For as much as I read this is quite a bit a different understanding.... I'd like to discuss it but I don't have much time the whole week. But I will get back to you....

[bluemeanie1]

@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

Thanks for clearing that up, it sounds like I understood your concept correctly then. I'm curious with what you'll come up with.

Are you still using the term DAC or have you stepped away from that? Because your are not really talking about a decentralized autonomous company/organisation in your model. Not trying to split hairs here, but it looks like you are going in a completely different direction from the DAC-concepts in bitshares and I'm trying to get my head around what you're trying to do and what benefits and pitfalls a blockchain-based-solution will bring to the table in your application. Biggest pitfall as I see it would be the legal status and validity in the world outside of the blockchain.

I personally don't use DAC, I call it Virtual Corporations.  Others did apply this term to it, and it still seems to linger but I think at this point the distinctions are fairly clear.  The project is still in it's early stages so we're quickly working these things out.

Seems the primary difference here is that VCorps involve input from people, whereas DACs(in theory) operate automatically.  I still haven't seen any clear examples of how DACs can be used in real-world situations.

Not sure how the Virtual Corporations would have any different legal status than a DAC.  Perhaps you can explain your statement?

-bm

[JoeyD]

@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

Thanks for clearing that up, it sounds like I understood your concept correctly then. I'm curious with what you'll come up with.

Are you still using the term DAC or have you stepped away from that? Because your are not really talking about a decentralized autonomous company/organisation in your model. Not trying to split hairs here, but it looks like you are going in a completely different direction from the DAC-concepts in bitshares and I'm trying to get my head around what you're trying to do and what benefits and pitfalls a blockchain-based-solution will bring to the table in your application. Biggest pitfall as I see it would be the legal status and validity in the world outside of the blockchain.

[bluemeanie1]

@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

I believe I've communicated with you in the past. What is your opinion on NXT at this price? Is it something to buy or is it over priced?

I think we've interacted over at Peershares?

I think it's a great buy.  Lots of stuff happening at NXT right now.  You've got a number of new core features rolling out and a number of interesting financial services are popping up.  Right now we've got a short sale window, and they're developing Forex futures and a few other things.  And of course, I'm working on VCorps.  Seems like everyone is jumping in, the more features they build out, more real demand for NXT while supply-side remains constant.  That's a fairly fundamental equation for rising prices.

-bm

[luckybit]

@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

I believe I've communicated with you in the past. What is your opinion on NXT at this price? Is it something to buy or is it over priced?

[bluemeanie1]

@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

hi there,

NXT already has the basic bitsharesME functions in place, it's called the Asset Exchange.  There's already quite a bit of activity on it.  What VCorps does specifically is overlays corporate governance onto the assets and allows for shareholders to interact with the management of the company.  For instance shareholders can elect officers, and those officers have control over corporate accounts for the tenure of their office.

-bm

[JoeyD]

@bluemeanie1: dank je voor de links (saw you answering in Dutch on the nxtforums).

You seem to have a different concept of DAC, because to me it sounds more like a traditional centralized corporation with a lot of the legal and financial administration on a decentralized ledger/administration system. So I'm a bit confused in how this is decentralized and autonomous, because it sounds more like what bitsharesME is hoping to do over here, issuing shares (in centralized corporations/entities) but tracked and issued on a decentralized network.

Your project does seem to be a lot more complex than bitsharesME, when you talk about implementing all these legal systems and contracts in your system.

[bluemeanie1]

I might also add that there is a Virtual Corporations subforum:  https://nxtforum.org/virtual-corporations/

-bm

[JoeyD]

There also seems to be some rather heavy editing/censoring going on over on bitcointalk in favour of keeping the PoW status-quo according to some people on that nxt-forum. Has anyone noticed that happening in the discussions around bitshares-dpos as well?

Interesting (the censoring)... do you have a link?

I have a bad habit of not making bookmarks of information I found very quickly, only to discover afterwards that I'm unable to find it again. I found another thread discussing a similar occurrence and it seems they are referencing the discussion about censorship, unfortunately I'm unable to use the search function on that website, because I've forgotten my login (Could very well be I forgot to register as well, I'm losing track of which forums I've registered to).

EDIT
Sorry bluemeanie1 didn't mean to ignore you. Some members who are also part of the bitshares community are working on a collaborative project under the name BeyondBitcoin and are trying to get the discussion going on that subject via interviews or weekly meetups on the mumble voice-chat server. Maybe you would be interested in doing either an interview on your project or attending one of the mumble-sessions as a guest speaker?

From what I understand the general idea behind the BeyondBitcoin project is to have people from different communities do their own thing and hold their own meetups and digital conferences and such on the mumble server and try to get some cross pollination going, without needing to travel across half the globe and pay high entrance fees to attend a bitcoinconference.

[bluemeanie1]

NXT is constantly releasing wallets because their network isn't stable.  It is hard to judge who is a winner by any stretch.

As far as the OP, I do know there are guys who have hashed phrase dictionaries and are waiting on the NXT network.  If a weak wallet appears they will jump in and transfer the NXT out within 1 minute.  It happened to me a few months ago when I made a test wallet with my real full name (Against the warnings of the wallet..).  Within 2 minutes, there was a blockchain transaction removing the money.  Actually I don't recall the timeframe exactly, and it didn't matter,  as I thought it was quite funny and wrote it off as a lesson learned. 

BTW I thought Bitshares was more about creating a DAC toolkit foundation, not trying to make the next cryptocurrency.  It is interesting how the expectations of users vary on here.

I guess you could build DACs using the NXT code as well. But asaik they have a bit a different understanding of DAC: https://nxtforum.org/nxt-improvement-proposals/virtual-corporations-on-nxt/?PHPSESSID=6dq4o5dfi7t1av12usj02t3nu1

hi delulo,

I'm heading off the Virtual Corp project.  The technology was meant to mimic real world corporations.

Not sure if Bitshares DACs have anything to offer over NXT Vcorps, but certainly I'm up to discuss.

-bm

[santaclause102]

There also seems to be some rather heavy editing/censoring going on over on bitcointalk in favour of keeping the PoW status-quo according to some people on that nxt-forum. Has anyone noticed that happening in the discussions around bitshares-dpos as well?

Interesting (the censoring)... do you have a link?