Author Topic: mesh networking, last mile problem, and BTSX  (Read 20790 times)

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Offline JoeyD

Coming back to the trusted node system for the mesh payment network, would it not be feasible to convince shops in crowded areas to be seed nodes if they can get paid for sharing their bandwidth to the mesh network and at the same time be sure they have a very reliable link to the payment network. Use greed and fear at the same time, that's a tried and true tactic which has worked wonders since time in memoriam.

I think the trick for a lot of these distributed models is to find a way to piggy back onto other beneficial things and provide freebee services that way. My favorite analogy is trying to latch a couple of passenger cars onto a freight train and let the freight transport provide free public transport.

Offline fussyhands

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agreed ... still afaik you can also share you wifi connection via opengarden .. I need to check out these apps ASAP :)

Yes, I think you can.  But I don't think you can sell it.  And that will make a HUGE difference.

Offline JoeyD

Is opengarden only for celular data then? Their site lists wifi.

Oh, even though I'm late to respond, no you actually don't need to wait for the first confirmation in bitcoin. As I said you only need to know if the payment is possible. Verifying the balance doesn't take 10 minutes, and you can see all transactions waiting in line even without them being in a block and you can actually see how far the transaction has spread through the network and even deduce the likelihood of it being processed in the next block.

I've been told by several sources that the mycellium android wallet even has a gui just for that. So you can decide how much trust you want for a particular payment right up until the block-confirmation. So for POS and small to micropayments, the blocktimes can be worked around. I also was under the impression that the payment protocol by Mike Hearn had similar options.

Then again, why would you actually need to run the complete blockchain on the mesh network anyway? You could use trusted intermediaries like the delegates or something like open-transactions. You only need parts to check out and a certain level of reliability of being sure the transaction will be included in the block. And why wouldn't shops want to run their own trusted  node on which customers must send their transactions if they fear being scammed by a random passerby?

Btw if this is running on a mesh network anyway, you could detect a scammer within said 10 minutes blocktime and alert all surrounding people to his presence. Have alarms go off on all phones surrounding the guy/girl. Or would that be too evil?

Offline xeroc

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agreed ... still afaik you can also share you wifi connection via opengarden .. I need to check out these apps ASAP :)

Offline oldman

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we can start building that kind of mesh network with mobile phones first:
https://opengarden.com/apps

"earn bitUSD by providing network to people nearby"!

Exactly!  If you could earn money by running opengarden it might really take off.  People would start running it everywhere (it's available for Mac and Windows) and feel gratified every time they saw their earnings tick up.

But realistically most people won't want to share their cellular data connections because cellular data is so expensive/scarce.  But broadband data is not.  So I think the place to start is giving people a way to share their broadband connections via mesh and earn money for it.  The phone apps will probably mostly be used to get data from the broadband connections rather than to share the cellular connections.

You might be surprised with the cellular data. I don't use anywhere near my monthly allocation and I'm sure there's a lot of folks in the same boat.

If the opengarden app could track/learn my average monthly data consumption and automatically sell the unused data... wow.

Offline fussyhands

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we can start building that kind of mesh network with mobile phones first:
https://opengarden.com/apps

"earn bitUSD by providing network to people nearby"!

Exactly!  If you could earn money by running opengarden it might really take off.  People would start running it everywhere (it's available for Mac and Windows) and feel gratified every time they saw their earnings tick up.

But realistically most people won't want to share their cellular data connections because cellular data is so expensive/scarce.  But broadband data is not.  So I think the place to start is giving people a way to share their broadband connections via mesh and earn money for it.  The phone apps will probably mostly be used to get data from the broadband connections rather than to share the cellular connections.

Offline xeroc

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we can start building that kind of mesh network with mobile phones first:
https://opengarden.com/apps

"earn bitUSD by providing network to people nearby"!

Offline oldman

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So all we need is BM to combine BTSX, Storj, Maidsafe and Firechat into a global meshnet protocol that can connect any Bluetooth/WiFi device.

Throw in DAC to operate/maintain a bunch of those Facebook sub-orbital drones and/or microsats for continental inter-connectivity.

I mean really, what's he going to do with all the spare time once Bitshares is off and running?

Ha!  It actually may be quite a bit simpler than that.  There are opensource wifi meshnet implementations for sharing internet connections already and there are opensource router firmware packages for customizing popular routers already.  So here are some straightforward steps to get the project going:
1) Integrate BTSX payments into existing opensource implementation of internet sharing wifi meshnet (this is the hardest step as it requires considerable thought and experimentation regarding network performance and incentives)
2) Integrate that implementation of meshnet+BTSX into existing opensource implementation of router firmware
3) Sell router as one step plug and play package for connecting to the meshnet, advertise, form business partnerships, etc (can probably get this kickstarted or VC funded)

extra credit:

4) Port the opensource wifi meshnet from step 1 to smartphone apps so you can also connect to the meshnet from Android and iOS (PCs are already supported by opensource meshnet implementations).

For step 3 I image that you might pick one tech literate city and advertise the hell out of it to get a critical mass going.  Once it's up and working in one big city it will spread like wildfire to the rest of the world.

Bitcoin is still looking for its "killer app" to propel it into the mainstream.

If ever there was a killer app for BTSX, this could be it.  It could take BTSX to full blown mainstream adoption in a matter of a few years.  With *transactional* demand driving the price of BTSX (instead of speculation which currently drives the volume of all cryptocoins) it would have unparalleled investment legitimacy, and that could lead to very rapid adoption throughout the world economy.

Seed the networks by dropping solar-powered autonomous nodes in major urban centres.

With a little bit of advertising folks will download the app and connect to the cheapest and most secure internet conceivable.

The rest will take care of itself via word-of-mouth, eventually the seed nodes can just die off.

Offline nomoreheroes7

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I mean really, what's he going to do with all the spare time once Bitshares is off and running?

The same thing he does every day, Pinky,
try to reengineer the world!


NARF!

Offline Stan

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I mean really, what's he going to do with all the spare time once Bitshares is off and running?

The same thing he does every day, Pinky,
try to reengineer the world!

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline fussyhands

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So all we need is BM to combine BTSX, Storj, Maidsafe and Firechat into a global meshnet protocol that can connect any Bluetooth/WiFi device.

Throw in DAC to operate/maintain a bunch of those Facebook sub-orbital drones and/or microsats for continental inter-connectivity.

I mean really, what's he going to do with all the spare time once Bitshares is off and running?

Ha!  It actually may be quite a bit simpler than that.  There are opensource wifi meshnet implementations for sharing internet connections already and there are opensource router firmware packages for customizing popular routers already.  So here are some straightforward steps to get the project going:
1) Integrate BTSX payments into existing opensource implementation of internet sharing wifi meshnet (this is the hardest step as it requires considerable thought and experimentation regarding network performance and incentives)
2) Integrate that implementation of meshnet+BTSX into existing opensource implementation of router firmware
3) Sell router as one step plug and play package for connecting to the meshnet, advertise, form business partnerships, etc (can probably get this kickstarted or VC funded)

extra credit:

4) Port the opensource wifi meshnet from step 1 to smartphone apps so you can also connect to the meshnet from Android and iOS (PCs are already supported by opensource meshnet implementations).

For step 3 I image that you might pick one tech literate city and advertise the hell out of it to get a critical mass going.  Once it's up and working in one big city it will spread like wildfire to the rest of the world.

Bitcoin is still looking for its "killer app" to propel it into the mainstream.

If ever there was a killer app for BTSX, this could be it.  It could take BTSX to full blown mainstream adoption in a matter of a few years.  With *transactional* demand driving the price of BTSX (instead of speculation which currently drives the volume of all cryptocoins) it would have unparalleled investment legitimacy, and that could lead to very rapid adoption throughout the world economy.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 01:49:42 pm by fussyhands »

Offline 麥可貓

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So all we need is BM to combine BTSX, Storj, Maidsafe and Firechat into a global meshnet protocol that can connect any Bluetooth/WiFi device.

Throw in DAC to operate/maintain a bunch of those Facebook sub-orbital drones and/or microsats for continental inter-connectivity.

I mean really, what's he going to do with all the spare time once Bitshares is off and running?

Speaking of Firechat, the mesh networking ability is the key reason why it is widely used in recent protests in east asia. For example, people attending the onging protest in hong kong use Firechat to tell each other to escape from pepper spray and tear gas casted by the police. Traditional messengers are useless here because people are too crowded there to use bandwidth. Also, traditional messengers are blocked by the goverments there.

As one of the purposes of messeging system in bitshares toolkit, KeyID, and the Vote DAC is to improve the freedom (of communication) and avoid surveillence of the authority as once revealed in this picture:


To achieve 'free, private communication everywhere', I think the implementation of mesh networking ability in BitShares Toolkit is not 'additional', but 'necessary'.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 11:24:54 am by 麥可貓 »
PTS: PmRVDPymZqSAZEXauHZSewrUrE66af7epT
BTSX: michaelcat
Delegate Team: x1.sun  x2.sun

Offline fussyhands

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Maybe someone with more experience in this field can comment, but if you want to replace the last-mile connectivity, I don't think it is going to just be 10 additional hops. I doubt the latency would every be low enough for gaming, voip, and video chat. And the latency might be high enough that browsing the web recreationally would suck so much that you rather not bother.

Possible that gaming wouldn't be practical (at first), but my guess is that everything else would be.  Remember, especially early on, there are likely to be hundreds or thousands of internet connections throughout the city because at first people will be sharing their comcast connectivity over the mesh and making money on it (it could be very difficult for comcast to detect).  As time goes on those thousands of comcast connection points could be replaced by inter-city comcast competitors.  Putting 100 connection points throughout a big city is only a *tiny* fraction of the cost of wiring up every house, so it would be feasible for competitors to enter the market, even if it required placing many connection points.  Furthermore you can aggregate all the connection points of all competitors when thinking about how many connection points would be spread through a city.  So if there are 10 competitors who each have placed 100 connection points, then you have 1000 connection points spread throughout the city.  So yes, I think 5-10 hops to a connection point could be very realistic.

It's not settled that legal liability would attach.  There have been some cases about people not securing their wifi connection in their homes, and outsiders using their wifi for evil purposes, and I don't think anyone has gotten in serious trouble for not securing their wifi.  It won't be target by government unless it is fairly popular, and once it is, there may be little they can do.  Your example of tor for instance is apt.  Tor is still going.

I am just saying this legal uncertainty can kill adoption.

My intuition is that the legal uncertainty would not prevent this from catching on, and once it did catch on, courts and legislatures would be less likely to adopt laws that would kill it.  I'm a lawyer so I take legal uncertainty very seriously, but in this case my guess is that it wouldn't be a crucial factor.  But I admit that that is only my intuition based on experience and study.  Impossible to know for sure.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 01:22:03 pm by fussyhands »

Offline lakerta06

I mean really, what's he going to do with all the spare time once Bitshares is off and running?

Drinking his scotch on his private island?

Offline oldman

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So all we need is BM to combine BTSX, Storj, Maidsafe and Firechat into a global meshnet protocol that can connect any Bluetooth/WiFi device.

Throw in DAC to operate/maintain a bunch of those Facebook sub-orbital drones and/or microsats for continental inter-connectivity.

I mean really, what's he going to do with all the spare time once Bitshares is off and running?