Quote

Well I do not intend to offend you, but I think you need to learn more about investing and market reactions in supply/demand... we were all informed for several weeks there would be a snapshot taken on february 28th... so by setting such a deadline for the reward of BTS, there will be a natural increase in demand as people want to be apart of that, and naturally once the snapshot is taken, there is no longer a reason for them to hold on to PTS with this method of investing... so they immediately started selling off before demand dropped and prices as well dropped with it...

I believed that people would want to keep their PTS as this supposed to be an asset that will give you dividends in future DACs. It is not like I3 promissed something and didn't deliver, lied or did something wrong to affect the price so dramatically. This was like when Baidu stopped to accept BTCs or Gox bankrupted...I think that in a more liquid and mature market this wouldn't happen. In contrast, the demand for PTS should have increased since I3 who is behind did everything correctly. But this didn't happen. People are speculating too much all the time and this is no good.In the past investors would keep their stocks for 7 years. Nowdays, nobody keep their investment more than 7 months and in cryptocurrencies time is much much lesser.

Bitcoin millionaires are millionaires because they believed in Bitcoin and were not selling their BTCs. I though that this should have happened with PTS, but unfortunatelly I was wrong...

Other than that I agree with all your reasoning. Unfortunatelly I know nothing about mining and I definitelly have a lot to learn about cryptocurrencies. I am strangling to understand as much as possible but it is really difficult for an average investor with no much IT knowledge to follow up. You guys are able to see and analyse valuable data and information that most people can't. I will get there eventually...After all if you don't pay you don't learn...

well people have less reason to keep their PTS currently, as there is no market driven data that would lend more value to it... supply and demand... this happens ALL the time in the stock market...

people buy and sell stocks constantly based upon future outlooks... if stocks traded for what the company was worth today, as in, they would be 30x less expensive to purchase... but folks are betting on the future and where the company will go... today right now, invictus has no announcement as to when the next DAC will come out... for an invester that means your money, is sitting there not "working" for you at the moment... its in limbo... you would make more profit putting it in other places that are creating an increased value... the value has already been realized with PTS today...

now when invictus announces, hey guys we're taking a snapshot onnnnn lets make up a date of July 4th... investors will want to get ahead of that, some sooner, some later, depending where their money is working for them today and generating more or less revenue for them... those getting little return someplace else, will be likely to buy in early to maximize their returns since their money is doing little for them now... those making good gains someplace else will come to the game late as they are already making profits... this is the natural rise and fall of all markets...

in a good year the orange crop has so many oranges, and not enough demand the price goes down per orange... in a bad year, people still want orange juice, but there are less oranges on the trees, so demand rises and prices do as well... so we all know when growing season is, and during growing season we can see how the crops are turning out and speculate on final results... this is like the buildup before the harvest... now after the harvest, there are no oranges on the trees... so prices drop or rise as we're already on to next years crops and speculations, but in the meantime, does it make sense to hold on to them... well that depends on a few things... did the value of orange shares drop so much, its worth the risk to hold on to them for next years crop, or did you profit so much from the orange shares it makes sense to sell them, because its unlikely for the next 6 months the number will be any higher?

I'm trying to think of a good way to explain it, and since I'm having orange juice right now, thats the best...

P.S. this is also more complex because the value has been split among two different shares now... PTS and BTS... so one may over time hold more value than the other... only time will tell how each is developed upon...

Quote from: dirktadwater on March 01, 2014, 02:12:45 pm

Now that the deadline has passed for purchasing PTS/AGS to get Bitshares X, I'm wondering if it is advantageous to acquire AGS or PTS for the upcoming releases?

For Bitshares X, AGS gave you more Bitshares per unit than PTS. Will this be the same with upcoming releases? In short, I'm wondering what the best bang for my buck is.

Thanks.

Let's assume that DAC will be released after 140 days when 1 AGS will be equal to 1 PTS.
Today you can exchange your 1 PTS for 1.7-2.0 AGS it's a good deal?

but lets say invictus wants to jump PTS prices and announces they will give 20% to PTS and 10% to AGS... now PTS is better. speculate!

Quote from: toast on February 24, 2014, 11:36:41 pm

I for one am all for hearing what Darkbane has to say. Let's keep it in one thread though.
Until someone from i3 gets back to us with more specific info this conversation can't really make progress, unless darkbane has specific advice of some kind besides "get a lawyer"

The challenge we have is that anything we say can and will be used against us    Even speculating on what the laws may be or how to phrase things. 

I encourage Darkbane to contact us directly to resolve any issue without confusing the issue due to his incomplete knowledge of our situation.

well this is interesting... I just noticed I guess I started this thread... even though I did not... if you want to force me to reply to only one forum, then why not send me a personal message... I only stumbled across this one as I was randomly clicking through the dozens of forums and threads and discovered a legal topic recently created...

I can't contact you directly because the invictus website online lists a generic email address and single phone number... if you have an office extension or direct email address and want to go back and forth with me on concerns... or how about this next conference coming up, will you be available at it? well I think I read about another conference, I'm not sure there are so many places for information posted they often cross eachother and that one might already be over with...

P.S. onceuponatime... I do take offense to you saying I hijack threads... I am directly responding to people posting information and quote what they had said, and my reply directly does have bearing on the subject they mentioned in some form... so its not a hijack to sell a video card, its directly responding to their information with my information related to it in some way...

having questions and wanting answers is never wrong... seeking knowledge is never wrong... trying to impact the community in a way that I feel protects and strengthens the community is never wrong... otherwise they would not have addressed my primary concern about "donations, patrons, etc etc" and simplified it to one legal term that now gives them a bearing going forward with less legal liabilities... THAT IS GOOD FOR OUR COMMUNITY....

I don't want to complain about the huge price drop, since I am still a believer and support I3.

But... I am a long term investor and I am following from the beggining and I didn't see that happening...I thought that there would be some price stability in the price of PTS and not such a huge drop. If I3 knew that this was going to happen, for example if I3 sold PTS like crazy after the snapshot, I think that some advice or warning should have been sent to people who are following from the start in order to protect our shareholdings by selling also and then re-bying low now.

At this point I feel that even since I am here from the beggining I didn't make any profit and later investors coming in now have almost the same advantages as my self. Sure I will get XTS where others won't but with this drop in price I could have cashed some profits and then re-invest. Or do we expect the price to go even lower than that?

I believe that if I3 wants to keep the investors investing in them should send us some opinions, advices or signals of what they think is going to follow. An email like the nice reports that we receive from time to time would have been nice. Not everyone here read the reddit articles...

And I don't think that this would fall under inside information, but rather just an advice for the preservation of the purchase power of the initial investors. Every company sends reports to their clients and to their investors with opinions and advices. They ofcourse writte a disclaimer but they do send out warnings and reports. 

Anyway, I don't want to complain anymore..I should have known better and I should have probably foresee that this would happen...It is just ennoying and makes me think to be more carefull in the future. Every time that there is a new release and the snapshot is taken everyone is going to sell like crazy...This in my opinion creates an instability and uncertainty to people who want to be long term investors..

I appologise in advance if I offended anyone.This is not my intention.It is a free market and everyone is responsible for his actions!

Well I do not intend to offend you, but I think you need to learn more about investing and market reactions in supply/demand... we were all informed for several weeks there would be a snapshot taken on february 28th... so by setting such a deadline for the reward of BTS, there will be a natural increase in demand as people want to be apart of that, and naturally once the snapshot is taken, there is no longer a reason for them to hold on to PTS with this method of investing... so they immediately started selling off before demand dropped and prices as well dropped with it...

if you were mining PTS you would have seen a HUGE increase in the number of miners and equipment pointed at PTS in the weeks before the snapshot as people jumped on the bandwagon to get in time for the snapshot... the difficulty per share doubled in an extremely short period as a result... and now that the snapshot is over, the number of miners have run off to other coins as there is no immediate need to hold on to PTS...

now when invictus announcers there will be another snapshot coming up, you will most likely see another increase and then dropoff again after because of the style of information needed to be collected... they don't need the people to be holding the PTS after they take the picture so to speak, its locked in and done...

invictus can not give out investing advice to people when to buy or sell (legally it would be horrible to do), as they also are speculating on what the market will do... and could be held liable for giving out investing advice without being registered to do so... each state in america has different laws regulating people who give out financial advice in an official form, they would be held to a different standard in most states than us in the forum speculating... insider information is a whole different ball of wax, if they used knowledge the public did not posses, like lets say they did not announce when the snapshot was going to be, and bought up all the PTS they could ahead of that, and then announced it, that would be insider trading and manipulating the market since it was not made public knowledge and they traded ahead of time for an advantage...

Knowledge
The Ultimate Proof of Work

so does your knowledge support insider trading by employees, or does your knowledge say insider trading is bad?

Bytemaster... my point being... invictus claims this is all for the community and not the company... so if they are making a statement, why not back it with action...

I don't think it's unreasonable for them to acknowledge this is a potential huge conflict of interest... and to put a rule in place for employee behavior... maybe the day of or 72 hours after are not the right amounts for time... but I think there should be some buffer from people directly involved in the company... or an equal footing for those who aren't sitting around the office and know when the company is about to put out notice of a new DAC or other news that will directly impact the price...

this would seem logical and reasonable, maybe people can signup for some email announcements listing, that when company news is announced, all parties will receive and email within roughly the same time depending where they are on the list and how fast things get processed, but within minutes reasonably... then those who choose to can signup to receive company announcements and all receive the same opportunity... versus lost in the forums, website that isn't done yet, or finding out once prices double... then once all are given the same notice, employees can act 1 hour after? I don't know the time but the need to separate employee's from manipulating the market is important to the community...

if word ever got out an employee was doing this, how long do you think people would continue to support this whole project? then the community would fail because of the actions of someone who was not held to some conditions due to their ability to access information ahead of time... I think quite a lot of damage would occur if people saw employees or the company buying thousands of PTS before announcements and selling after it went up... thats damaging to us all...

imagine if we ALL sat around the same table, and we ALL heard invictus announce that on february 28th they will take a snapshot of the chain and will base their reward of BTS on that... we'd all have immediately gone and bought PTS since we KNEW it was about to run up quick as people scrambled to get in while they could... and shortly after invictus made the announcement, what happened to the price of PTS, it went on a steady steady rise... (almost 3x where it is today)

now imagine only employees heard that information first, and only employees bought ahead of the curve at the lowest possible price... who would you say was taking advantage of the situation? the employee who is supposed to be doing this all for the community, or the community? with great power comes great responsibility... just asking for the right use of that power, not unreasonable at all...

now imagine all this happens on every future DAC, the employee with knowledge before its made public gets a 3x return on their purchase... thats not speculating... thats insider trading...

what if, like recommended by Stan I believe, we did not hold on to PTS until march 2nd, just in case something went wrong with the snapshot... and employees knew something went wrong, and before the community did, they went out and bought PTS today for $6 each, and then after they were all done buying what they could, the company announced it would have to take another snapshot in 3 days... well now there will be a made dash to scramble up PTS as quickly as possible and once it doubles or triples again, the employees sell off and cash in... using knowledge unfairly only they had access to at the time of purchase... not unreasonable for a request of some limits in place for them...

Quote from: Darkbane on February 24, 2014, 06:19:22 pm

Quote from: onceuponatime on February 24, 2014, 05:21:22 am

Quote from: Markus on February 24, 2014, 05:00:55 am

Quote from: Darkbane on February 24, 2014, 03:15:41 am

Quote from: delulo on February 23, 2014, 10:13:03 pm

what would be the worst case / consequences in this respect (legal issues developing in a negative way)?

the worst case scenario is someone files a lawsuit against them for fraud, misrepresentation, or legal claim to assets of the company because of how this whole scenario has been handled... then all the "donations" from AGS/PTS people become part of the lawsuit and awarded as a judgement to those who sued (well whats left of it)... all it takes is one disgruntled person willing to take a step with a lawyer hungry enough to realize, they've got millions, and the lawyer will profit millions... thats generally all it takes, they can paint a picture of how "its different", however legally the court system follows printed law, not "how it should be" law... and that is what worries me... instead of getting things in order, they intend to jump in feet first and hope they don't hit a rock in the water... money has a way of putting blinders on people...

best case scenario, things go well and everything comes true...

reality of it, will probably be a mix of these two...

the big question being, how much of each and who loses more...

Worst case here: Uncle Sam (or one of his lawyers) seizes the Angel fund. Then we are there where Counterparty is now. AGS just becomes proof-of-burn - which seems to work just as well

Isn't the Angel Fund held in PTS and BTC? Hopefully mostly in cold storage? How is Uncle Anybody going to seize anything?

to answer your question about how can anyone seize anything...

http://www.fbi.gov/newyork/press-releases/2013/manhattan-u.s.-attorney-announces-seizure-of-additional-28-million-worth-of-bitcoins-belonging-to-ross-william-ulbricht-alleged-owner-and-operator-of-silk-road-website

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/10635359/Drugs-guns-and-assassination-Silk-Road-successor-Utopia-shut-down-by-police.html

the US government seized control of millions of accounts and dollars... or has everyone forgotten this back from early 2013... there are dozens of more examples as criminals move, so does the justice department... they've sized bitcoins from many people... including this guy below trying to sue to get them back before they sell the seized asset... (and its not just america, its every government around the nation seizing them)

http://www.coindesk.com/silk-road-seller-sues-stop-government-sale/

now this is not to imply PTS/AGS have a drug problem... I'm just showing its extremely easy to seize bitcoins... so they can be taken away and sold off by the government...

I think you are over reacting a bit. The government isn't as powerful as you imply that it is. The thing with cryptocurrencies and cryptoequities is that if you take the proper precautions to protect your cryptowealth it is virtually impossible for them to seize anything. We can all learn something from SilkRoad and that is that if you don't take the proper precautions the government can in theory confiscate your cryptowealth.

However, what if your cryptowealth was not stored on your computer at home? What if someone created a DAC whose sole purpose is to ensure the security of your cryptowealth? What if your private key for your millions in cryptowealth were stored somewhere in cyberspace that only YOU knew about? This isn't like stacks of hundred dollar bills that require large amounts of energy and space to move and hide. You can literally store millions of dollars worth of cryptowealth in a few megabytes worth of data.

As far as the legal aspect goes have you forgotten that government derives its power from the consent of the governed, at least that is the way it should be. Technological innovation and the adoption of technology is exponential in nature and governments are way to slow and inefficient to do anything to stop it or slow it down. Do you think that the new class of millionaires and billionaires that this technology creates will simply not put up a fight? I believe that the adoption of this cryptocurrency and cryptoequity technology will be faster than anything that has been done before. Think about this, it took Facebook about 10 years to reach 1 Billion users or roughly half of the internet users online worldwide as of today and the vast majority of people don't use Facebook to make money as Facebook is the one that makes money from our information. Now, here we will have a technology whose fundamental purpose is profit. I think that the whole crypocurrency/cryptoequity industry will reach 1 Billion users faster than Facebook did simply because there will be a little bit of profit for everybody out there.

Believe me these people with a vested interest to protect their cryptowealth will do everything in their power to protect themselves including using their fortunes to change the law and so what used to be illegal will then be legal.

I think you're over estimating the power of a couple percent of americans doing this... and the other 95% who are not... as well as the legal foundation all laws are built on already has a regulatory process to cover many actions invictus has already done as a business in america... they've already changed the rules of the game mid-stream... they've used verbiage thats greatly opened them up to legal action... its good to see you are optimistic and think things can magically be shielded... however they can't undo the changes they've made and the wording used while making it... thats the whole issue! that alone puts everything in jeopardy and you can't erase it...

they SHOULD have been a non-profit legally registered from day ONE... they SHOULD have had VERY clear and concise methods on every step of the way... remember there was no AGS not too long ago, they changed that whole model... now change itself is not bad, but when they've made obligations through their own words and modify that, they can be held accountable for it... then the mixing of words over what AGS even is, adds more doors opened in other aspects... and this is without ANY new legislation being passed in dozens of states, this is just current laws on the books on how a business must operate, and every one of the 50 states has variations in what companies must do to comply... and clearly they have admitted in not so many words, they should have done things different...

now making a comparison to silkroad I will admit is a different scenario... one was intentional fraud obviously being commited by them... this would be unintentional and just a sheer lack of business knowledge to comply with regulations in all 50 states... however that does not excuse the possible penalties imposed by the state, or individuals who seek compensation... and they have made very clear mistakes... which can not be undone... which puts this whole grand social experiment at risk... which is our money... we deserve to be protected and they should take the proper steps... however their focis is pushing this as hard and fast as they can software wise, while ignoring the glaring red legal matters as a backburner issue they'll worry about if it arises... thats a horrendous business decision that could cost all of us at no fault of our own, everything we've done...

its not unreasonable to expect them to take as much care in legal protection as they would about say software security... without legal matters addressed, nothing else will matter how good it is because it will come to an end... and all this promised backing disappears in a heartbeat... which is a great cost to us...

Quote from: Darkbane on February 24, 2014, 11:21:44 pm

Quote from: flo2005 on February 24, 2014, 09:55:19 pm

Quote from: kpematop on February 24, 2014, 08:14:20 pm

NaN do you have plans to release more optimized miner for PTS, if yes when it can happen?
Is there possibility to add temperature, fan % and voltages for the GPUs in the miner?

Regards

because voltage regulation is a serious lack in linux AMD drivers and we all know that cards don't need that much volotage to run... even OC... Thanks a lot

http://sourceforge.net/projects/amdovdrvctrl/?source=navbar

allows you to change voltage unless your card is factory locked in which case the BIOS will have to be edited?

Tried but it says that some functions are not supported by either your hardware, the Catalyst driver or the ADL. List of problems: failed to get fan speed infos and Overdrive parameters. Which makes no sense since OD is activated because both cards (r9 290) are OC and works perfectly. Fan speed is also manually adjusted by command. Didn't manage to get the info if the last available version supports r9 cards or Catalyst 14.1 beta for linux... Any idea?

I personally don't know, I run windows, I was just trying to give you an option heh... I'm not sure the 290 series can have the voltage changed without directly accessing the BIOS, and I'm not sure anyone has made a good utility for the 290 series yet (I've seen people ask like crazy but never a good answer)... the 280 and below are cake to modify the BIOS if locked...