Quote from: Ben Mason on May 10, 2016, 02:42:05 pm

Quote from: Empirical1.2 on May 10, 2016, 02:21:07 pm

Quote from: Ben Mason on May 10, 2016, 06:05:01 am

Steemit rewards contribution....of course bitsharestalk should move.

Unfortunately the time value of good contributors forum posts is far in excess of what it would ever make sense to financially reward. So it's not much of a USP.

You could have already observed this via Brownies for participation. While it initially attracts some interest it rapidly plateaus and doesn't add value or network effect to the underlying unit/platform/forum or incentivize good contributors. This is because there are plethora of factors that attract users to engage/identify/contribute content.

Imo due to launch/distribution and other factors such as the 'social + media' being really a core/fundamental weakness of the founders it's a poor, to put it mildly, foundation for this. What it does have going for it, is that talented developers like BM and others are probably going to be based there in the near term so your ideas have a greater chance of manifesting/contributing to developments which could positively affect your investment. (As I think it's a poor investment, I don't see the value in that personally, but others might.) 

Quote from: Stan on May 10, 2016, 01:38:06 pm

So it's a really beautiful, self-reinforcing Darwinian selection process. No need to formally make such a decision.  It will sort itself out.

 

With great respect, I really don't know how you can be so definitive about the prospects of value continuing to be available to contributors on the Steemit network. Surely the relationship between contribution and reward (let's not forget, rewards do not only come in the form of Steem) will be the result of complex growth/innovation dynamics. Nobody is guaranteeing anything. But we can work hard and hope can't we? No-one has cracked mass adoption.....social media is a great start. The naysayers evaluation is as valid as the next person's but the future is unknown to everyone. I find solace in the technology, the effort and those many that share a solidarity of effort and optimism.

  you make a lot of good points including the fact that social media is potentially a great route to mass adoption.

Regards my personal evaluation, yeah it's pretty definitive, but it's a very fast moving industry so things can change. While the future is largely unknown, we do know >92% of tech start-ups fail within a couple of years, so as positive as anyone may be about any new venture, it's unnecessary to tie the fate of BTS via moving/merging to it at this nascent stage imo. I agree with Stan that it if it's superior, it doesn't need a formal decision/move and that it will occur naturally.

On reflection I do agree with you and Stan. There is no need to cease one for the other.....people will be drawn to where they find what they need. I am grateful for the discussion though. It has been a chance to engage our community in ideas and motivations. Also, as you rightly point out, there may be a high chance of failure (depending on how you determine it) but there have been some formidable successes within BitShares. Not least in the trials-by-fire that both developers and entrepreneurs and community members have been through and learned from. I believe the possibilities of success Are potentially higher for later projects as a result.  If those can incorporate or work in tandem with the existing technology that has been built, then all the better. I truely hope you will try Steem Empirical, just because if it does work out, I hope you get the value you huge contribution already deserves. You and many many others. We would already have nothing without the perseverance, dedication and ideas that have come from here. It's not the platform the matters, it's the people on it.

Crypto4ever is absolutely right that all historical posts must be preserved in perpetuity.

Quote from: Ben Mason on May 10, 2016, 06:05:01 am

Steemit rewards contribution....of course bitsharestalk should move.

Unfortunately the time value of good contributors forum posts is far in excess of what it would ever make sense to financially reward. So it's not much of a USP.

You could have already observed this via Brownies for participation. While it initially attracts some interest it rapidly plateaus and doesn't add value or network effect to the underlying unit/platform/forum or incentivize good contributors. This is because there are plethora of factors that attract users to engage/identify/contribute content.

Imo due to launch/distribution and other factors such as the 'social + media' being really a core/fundamental weakness of the founders it's a poor, to put it mildly, foundation for this. What it does have going for it, is that talented developers like BM and others are probably going to be based there in the near term so your ideas have a greater chance of manifesting/contributing to developments which could positively affect your investment. (As I think it's a poor investment, I don't see the value in that personally, but others might.) 

Quote from: Stan on May 10, 2016, 01:38:06 pm

So it's a really beautiful, self-reinforcing Darwinian selection process. No need to formally make such a decision.  It will sort itself out.

 

With great respect, I really don't know how you can be so definitive about the prospects of value continuing to be available to contributors on the Steemit network. Surely the relationship between contribution and reward (let's not forget, rewards do not only come in the form of Steem) will be the result of complex growth/innovation dynamics. Nobody is guaranteeing anything. But we can work hard and hope can't we? No-one has cracked mass adoption.....social media is a great start. The naysayers evaluation is as valid as the next person's but the future is unknown to everyone. I find solace in the technology, the effort and those many that share a solidarity of effort and optimism.

Whatsmore.....the constant divisive commentary is obviously detrimental to the interests of BitShares, openledger, Steemit and other connected  projects which are being driven by the most productive elements of these communities.

I have no doubt that there is a miasma of nefarious agendas in play. It is for individuals to evaluate for themselves..... I would argue for a willingness to accept the mistakes of the past as genuine, work with their consequences and adapt.

Steemit rewards contribution....of course bitsharestalk should move.

Hi guys,

how goes the Bitlandglobal ICO?

Cheers,

Ben.

Yes thank you for pointing that out. I've been very well supported by SVK and puppies. Puppies is in the middle of helping me vest the Steem I have.  The way I see it is if Steem as an experiment works then I will be able to keep afloat and trying to help BitShares.  I believe BitShares is the community and network that will unlock the future and Steem is a means to that end. But then I still have a lot of trust in BM. Also, I think there is a possibility that the BitShares dex can eventually be the platform/medium within which other networks assets can be exchanged (so Steem and other networks with different angles) and succeed together. I may be naive but there has been a lot of delicious looking fruit coming from this community for a long time! 

Quote from: Ben Mason on April 20, 2016, 03:36:11 am

Quote from: tonyk on April 20, 2016, 12:53:08 am

Quote from: Empirical1.2 on April 19, 2016, 11:42:36 pm

Quote from: Stan on April 19, 2016, 07:00:00 pm

Proposals are based in part on what resources are available to work on them.
Resources are hired based on the availability of stable funding.
A constant battle over who controls the funding light switch means no one dares hire against any line item.
So the resources remain allocated elsewhere.

Voting is overrated.  I wouldn't want to ride on an aircraft controlled by voting passengers.
Give me a benevolent whale any day.

While perhaps an isolated and overly suspicious view, posts like the above make me think a lot of Stan's recents threads like this one are actually veiled pitches for Steem which is already controlled by a 'benevolent whale' in form of Steemit. If so I think they should be moved to random discussion.

On the contrary...they should forever stay in the  General area as a remind of a great lessons learned in the past

This lesson in particular - on how the fighter for decentralization and freedoms for all, can turn the blockchain into a centralized solution where she holds virtually all of the stake ( and constantly tries to increase it by 9x ratio each and every time a new crumble of stake is thrown to the masses... small bait given in a hope to gain network effect and so even more money for her). This  Opost in particular being a brainstorming on "how to justify what is in our personal narrow interest, is the only and true way forward for everyone else"...

This lesson of course - when money and power are at stake, all other virtues tend to be twistable...

Crickey you guys just won't let up will you? How about using your big brains to contribute to the discussion without trying to twist it with some dark agenda?   Steemit does not qualify as a 'beneve-whale' and as such is clearly not the point of the discussion. If you don't like Steem, fine. We have BitShares. We have BitShares and its vision in part because of the virtue of those you are disparaging.

I appreciate your constantly uplifting, positive and unifying attitude Ben, you Clains & Fuzzy in particular imo are among other things, critical rocks of support for those who face often unfair criticism while doing the hard work of actually building BTS & I have faith that you are and will remain steadfast supporters of BTS and it's values.

While I apologise to anyone I unfairly criticise in my defence of BTS does the 'voting is overrated' post, sound BTS friendly in your opinion?

I'll be honest with you......i am finding it increasingly difficult to keep as much capital in Bitshares as i'd like because there are so many worthy projects to support and i am limited to the funds I have in crypto as it stands.  What makes it harder is the gap in my technical knowledge and my distance from the best information.  For instance, how do I evaluate the relative value of Bitshares as it stands and new initiatives (born out of necessity or frustration or innovation) like steem?  I feel i have to take a position in steem because many key community members have and it seems prudent.   Ultimately,  I have only ever been interested in one thing and you know what that is already.  I would hand over all my stake now if it would guarantee the success of the vision......

The Bitshares community has fractured to some degree around the issue of scarce resource use and the means of further developing the network.  Being part of a community that is not pulling in the same direction is greatly unsettling at times......however understandable.  So, huge mistakes were made in the history of Bitshares.......we have not made it easy for ourselves.  I believe all those mistakes were honestly made.  We only damage Bitshares if we continue to insist on chewing it all over.  We have some incredible technology built.  We have incredible partners working their asses off.  We need to re-galvanise Bitshares and the community and that's not easy at all.  But there is no other choice if we want to survive. 

I think Stan is frustrated that the powerful democratizing and flexible voting tools we have in Bitshares has not yielded the proactive, unified, driven developer paradise it could one day be.  Bitshares probably works better at scale......but how to get there.  For me, despite the economic challenge, sharedrops are the only way to remain connected with those that share a direction (technical, spiritual or philosophical) as we meander our way to mass adoption......this is snakes and ladders after all. 

A whale would make getting there a hell of a lot simpler.  We need to show ourselves and everyone else why our community is the one.  Clearly there is work to do but all the things we need are right here.