Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC

[fuzzy]

I support this initiative.  The worst that happens is that this spinoff of DNS DAC is out-competed by BTS.  If some innovation is created with this new DNS DAC and BTS copies it, then all the better.  I'd imagine many people will be invested in both anyway.

Put me on whatever list or mailings you plan if this does move forward.

Thanks.

As I see it, the value proposition can go MUCH farther.  Imagine, for instance, that a talented group of developers decide to fork DNS to make a new chain with different innovations (or to make it more friendly to a certain jurisdiction).  Those Devs essentially snapshot current ownership in the forked chain with a large %, can give themselves a small stake or allot a small % for a crowd sale to gain funding to test their metal against other chains' devs.  Those who are successful have NOW MADE A NAME for themselves to the degree where if BTS doesn't pick them up, another SuperDAC will.  If not, the task of simply building on the DNS fork (or even PTS, VOTE...etc for that matter) will likely have made them capable of building their own SuperDAC to rival others. 

Think bigger guys and girls!  This is a potential Multi-Trillion Dollar Industry!  Imagine being sharedropped on 10 different DNS forks, holding them all for 10 years and 2-3 of them ending up reaching valuations of 1+ Billion Dollars, just to be bought out by a SuperDAC (or maybe even more than 1).  Then you have made off QUITE nicely.  If this game is played right and developers know that supporting the community with significant sharedrops is a viable means by which they can earn attention and work to attain legitimacy in the industry...we have essentially made a very positive feedback loop that also protects us with the power of a diversified marketplace while protecting from corruption and also potentially making original holders very wealthy.... 

People see this as bad but I think that is just fear and impatience talking. I see this as potentially one of the best things I could ever imagine.  Sure, it MIGHT take a very small portion of the BTS valuation (initially) but it will spread the word that the bitshares ecosystem is evolving and not just settling into one static, microsoft-like existence.  Think of it as cheap advertising...

When this market can support literally hundreds of forked chains with their own special attributes (like altcoins have), we will know we have made it to where we all want this to go...the moon.  Let's consider these forks as Wormholes that force us to ask "which moon? There are sooooo many!"

[BTS007]

crazy！crazy！crazy！crazy！！！

[amencon]

I support this initiative.  The worst that happens is that this spinoff of DNS DAC is out-competed by BTS.  If some innovation is created with this new DNS DAC and BTS copies it, then all the better.  I'd imagine many people will be invested in both anyway.

Put me on whatever list or mailings you plan if this does move forward.

Thanks.

[ticklebiscuit]

Bump for money!

[CoinHoarder]

If one really takes the time to grok the OP, and understand it's intent, then all subsequent post would look very different.
It's the English to English translation which concerns me more than anything.

Let's examine this proposal on it's merits, not on all subsequent assumptions being made.  In general I find this community to be a very enlightened bunch, but there are some rather alarmist sentiments (assumptions) being expressed here in this thread.

If there are issues which need to be addressed, let's do that.  Not let the whole thread become a wash of rumor and conjecture.

I'm bits, and at the moment I'm here to help articulate team bitcoinerS position on the matter.  I'm personally dedicated to BTS, and focused on grassroots marketing for BTS, but here I will be able to act in a support capacity for team bitcoinerS and attempt to clear up any misunderstandings.

If the proposal 'as it actually exists' is not desirable, or impossible to articulate, then so be it, it will be modified or laid to rest.

I will now attempt to address your concerns one by one, and then let's see where we are at.

Thanks for your calm consideration.  More to follow.

When I first read the OP it was not clear that this was a third party DAC, I thought the DNS DAC was shifting gears. That affected my response and I'm sure others were confused as well.. as I am a native English speaker. It looks like Toast edited the title to make it clear it is a 3rd party DAC, which was a good move.

1. If the DNS DAC is withdrawing from the merger, they should not be share dropped in the BTS merger.
2. Stop changing things on a whim.
3. This is another thing I HATE about the merger.. it is an incredibly bad practice to release a cryptocurrency, snapshot it, then move to a new chain and deem the old tokens as being extinct. There are many dynamics of why this is bad and I don't care to spend hours explaining it as I feel like it should be common sense.
4. As mentioned previously, there is nothing stopping other DACs from implementing your features. This is another reason for the merger. Other DACs were going to copy BTSX's bitasset feature, there is nothing stopping BTS from doing the same.
5. I thought Toast was doing the DNS DAC, what is Bitcoiners/Toast's relation to the project? This just adds another layer of confusion..
6. Bitshares is starting to look more like a circus than a company. I am not here for entertainment. I am not surprised people are selling BTSX, I am very close to doing so myself. Please don't push me over that line that I am hovering around.

1. There is no withdrawl.  This is proposal for an independent, allied DAC.
2. ...
3. It's messy, there's no question, you're right.  What's the best solution?  I'm confident there are elegant solutions and we will find them, that's what we do.
4. It's a multi-directional street.  We are talking about separate but friendly development teams advancing along mutually beneficial lines and each strengthening the other's hand.
5. I don't wish to speak for Toast, but my understanding is that he will continue working on those features within BTS.  The idea is to have Toast on the BTS team and bitcoinerS keeping a separate but allied DNS DAC alive along mutually beneficial lines of development.
6. This proposal in no way threatens the BTS merger, or the amazing potential of BTS development.  I understand your frustrations, but characterizing this community as a circus will not help the situation.

1. That was not made clear in the OP until a later edit.. I am assuming just before you read the thread and made your first post.
2. Changing incentives of the social contract and playing with dilution was what I was referring to as things that should not be changed on a whim. Again, now that I know it's a 3rd party DAC this doesn't apply.
3. .... A good solution should be found before implementing anything and making an "official" decision. Bitshares is shooting from the hips.
4. What would be mutually beneficial about this? All I see is a potential competitor to BTS's DNS features.
5. I think that is clear now, this is a 3rd party DAC and has nothing to do with Toast or BTS.
6. Yes, now that there has been more clarification I don't think it will affect the merger. I think it still creates unnecessary complication to the ecosystem, confusion among investors and users, and competition for BTS though. I know characterizing this as a circus does not help but I call it like I see it, and again Bitshares is shooting from the hip.

[lovejoy]

This is not the official DNS team at all! this is completely unrelated to the bitshares team! If people are getting nervous from this thread having been posted, it should be deleted. Chinese people might understand only parts of it and think that DNS is getting restarted and the plans have changed again。

This might be a third party DAC, but they are proposing using the current DNS as proto shares.
So this will have implications for DNS and BTSX. So effectively it's no different from DNS restarting.

As to what happens to the current DNS tokens, that is a big matter to consider for sure.  And I don't personally know what the best answer is.  I think the initial idea was to not lose the underlying base of those who had expressed interest by supporting the project, and carry it forward, also allowing for folks to re-establish a position, but I'm probably not the best person to articulate the nuances of this particular issue.  Seems like something Bytemaster would be able to cut through with laser like clarity.

This is an area which needs to be more clearly fleshed out, I'm just not the one to weigh the options.

Thanks everyone for reading through my attempts at moderating a clear discussion.  You all don't know me very well, but I dearly love this community and want the best for everyone involved.  As the OP states, the first goal is 'broad consensus based on the merits'.  I have known bitcoinerS for many years and I can tell you that they have been one of the strongest advocates and supporters of BTS, and have a deep commitment to do what is best for the community.  I have full faith that we can think through all the angles and implications without resorting to hyperbole, and arrive at a sound conclusion.

[lovejoy]

We foresee BitShares DNS DAC accepting some BitAssets from the main BitShares DAC, such as BitUSD as payment for offered services, adding liquidity to the main BitShares DAC.

This is apparently not possible, and was one of the biggest reasons for the merger.

this is getting silly now.

I prefer the word ridiculous, but

1. If the DNS DAC is withdrawing from the merger, they should not be share dropped in the BTS merger.
2. Stop changing things on a whim.
3. This is another thing I HATE about the merger.. it is an incredibly bad practice to release a cryptocurrency, snapshot it, then move to a new chain and deem the old tokens as being extinct. There are many dynamics of why this is bad and I don't care to spend hours explaining it as I feel like it should be common sense.
4. As mentioned previously, there is nothing stopping other DACs from implementing your features. This is another reason for the merger. Other DACs were going to copy BTSX's bitasset feature, there is nothing stopping BTS from doing the same.
5. I thought Toast was doing the DNS DAC, what is Bitcoiners/Toast's relation to the project? This just adds another layer of confusion..
6. Bitshares is starting to look more like a circus than a company. I am not here for entertainment. I am not surprised people are selling BTSX, I am very close to doing so myself. Please don't push me over that line that I am hovering around.

1. There is no withdrawl.  This is proposal for an independent, allied DAC.
2. ...
3. It's messy, there's no question, you're right.  What's the best solution?  I'm confident there are elegant solutions and we will find them, that's what we do.
4. It's a multi-directional street.  We are talking about separate but friendly development teams advancing along mutually beneficial lines and each strengthening the other's hand.
5. I don't wish to speak for Toast, but my understanding is that he will continue working on those features within BTS.  The idea is to have Toast on the BTS team and bitcoinerS keeping a separate but allied DNS DAC alive along mutually beneficial lines of development.
6. This proposal in no way threatens the BTS merger, or the amazing potential of BTS development.  I understand your frustrations, but characterizing this community as a circus will not help the situation.

[lovejoy]

Well the idea has merits, but it may not be the right time to do it.
Call it KeyID or call it DNS as a third party DAC but please don't associated with the original Bitshares DNS. Right now Is is already confusing as is it and will hurt your DAC and it will hurt Bitshare too.

Actually third parties DAC forked from Bithsare toolkit is what we want   because this was the original vision of I3,  so KeyID and PTS DPOS are welcomed, but probably this is the worst moment because it will only add more to the panic and confusion.
Please keep working on this and when the time comes we all be all ready to welcome you  KeyID.  So keep on doing the good job bitcoinerS, you got toast support this is great.

I think the idea has merits as well, and we are talking about a third party DAC here, but one that wishes peace and cooperation, among development and community.

As to the timing, I believe team bitcoinerS will be very receptive to suggestions about how to do this in a way that is least disruptive to the community, as that is definitely not the intent.

[lovejoy]

Big time, energy, resource suck if you ask me.  Have fun.  Hope you don't hurt too many people in the process...but I suspect you will anyway.

I'm on the fence myself, but I understand that the intent is not to 'suck' any of those things.  If after people understand the idea fully, they are able to articulate why this is an unhelpful development, that will shape the outcome.  I'm hoping for more than 'have fun', though I totally understand your concerns.

[lovejoy]

Really? This is just what we need right now. DNS getting a pump, and BTSX losing some more value.

I still support the Bitshares community, but Al these sudden announcements/proposals could be interpreted as some cheeky money scams.

Buy up DNS at all time low, then announce/propose to continue.

Yeah its almost as if new proposals are made deliberately to spread confusion.

This is the exact opposite sentiment of the OP.  "Almost as if" [malicious assumption] = opposite of helpful.

We recognize that our community has been through quite a whirlwind as of late, and we are mindful of not causing additional concerns. To that end we will make every effort to present a clear picture of what we hope to achieve and why.

[GaltReport]

Big time, energy, resource suck if you ask me.  Have fun.  Hope you don't hurt too many people in the process...but I suspect you will anyway.

[lovejoy]

:s  I don't understand.  DNS holders have just been airdropped BTS to include them and some of the 3i team spent their own funds compensating DNS holders who got a raw deal.  Now you're going back on it?  So DNS will have its own competing shares and delegates?  Will you snapshot BTS?  Have an IPO? This is insane.  The market is in turmoil and people just keep changing things.

I3 did what they felt was needed to to make things right for the community.  They have acted to keep the core devs under one umbrella and on the same blockchain.  This is supported in the OP.  Team BitcoinerS is advocating the continuation of independent, co-evolutionary development.  Not looking to compete with BTS.

So who is it exactly who is now 100% focused on BTS?  Sorry but I don't know who you are bitcoinerS.

Team Bitcoiners is a delegate in the BTS community, with support from a loose group of developers who have expressed interest in advancing DNS services.  BitcoinerS is friends with delegate team Bits, I'm more focused on rolling out grassroots marketing efforts for BTS, but provide backup technical support and copywriting for bitcoinerS.

0
It's a relief to see you will use bitassets from BTS at least.  I don't know how that will work, won't holders of DNS want you to use their own in house bitassets to increase DNS value

The goal is to make the whole ecosystem stronger.  If this proposal advanced without regard to mutually beneficial development, who would that help?
Team bitcoinerS is talking about an alliance.

I follow everything that is said on this forum and I still have no idea what is going on.  What does "a different regulation and oversight profile" mean?

It means DNS is exposed to different degrees of scrutiny and will face different battles, Team bitcoinerS is suggesting that in this instance two separate allied entities will be both more effective and resilient than just one.

This is what happens when there are no contracts, developers just do whatever they want and don't finish things.

If DNS can just splinter off, what's stopping VOTE doing the same thing?  I thought these were things BM had agreed with you.

BM and Toast and others can still be focused and undivided in their allegiance and efforts to make BTS every more amazing.  This wouldn't be a splinter.  It's a friendly alliance between groups with mutual interests.  That language, 'splinter', is in itself damaging to further understanding the OP's original intent, and is found nowhere in any of the ideas expressed there.

[lovejoy]

Hmmm....so will this in effect be competing with the SuperDAC's implementation of DNS? Sounds confusing to me...

Notice in the OP it says:

BitShares DNS DAC will aim to reach a complementary development path with BitShares, each working on features beneficial to the other, but focusing on different applications and user groups within this large field.

DNS is a huge huge space, there is potential to advance together while maintaining autonomous positions.

[lovejoy]

  I support this if it can be executed smoothly.

What do you want to do with dev fund? Are there any other developers working with you?

To my knowledge there are a handful of devs who have expressed interest in working on a DNS related project.
I will let bitcoinierS address this himself, I am not a developer.  As to dev fund, my own personal feeling is that would be your call Toast, this would be a new story, and that money was tucked away for the previous iteration, so it seems more like BTS funding to me, for KeyID, but that's just my opinion.

[lovejoy]

If one really takes the time to grok the OP, and understand it's intent, then all subsequent post would look very different.
It's the English to English translation which concerns me more than anything.

Let's examine this proposal on it's merits, not on all subsequent assumptions being made.  In general I find this community to be a very enlightened bunch, but there are some rather alarmist sentiments (assumptions) being expressed here in this thread.

If there are issues which need to be addressed, let's do that.  Not let the whole thread become a wash of rumor and conjecture.

I'm bits, and at the moment I'm here to help articulate team bitcoinerS position on the matter.  I'm personally dedicated to BTS, and focused on grassroots marketing for BTS, but here I will be able to act in a support capacity for team bitcoinerS and attempt to clear up any misunderstandings.

If the proposal 'as it actually exists' is not desirable, or impossible to articulate, then so be it, it will be modified or laid to rest.

I will now attempt to address your concerns one by one, and then let's see where we are at.

Thanks for your calm consideration.  More to follow.