Author Topic: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC  (Read 4744 times)

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Offline lovejoy

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Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2014, 08:27:29 pm »
Well the idea has merits, but it may not be the right time to do it.
Call it KeyID or call it DNS as a third party DAC but please don't associated with the original Bitshares DNS. Right now Is is already confusing as is it and will hurt your DAC and it will hurt Bitshare too.

Actually third parties DAC forked from Bithsare toolkit is what we want   because this was the original vision of I3,  so KeyID and PTS DPOS are welcomed, but probably this is the worst moment because it will only add more to the panic and confusion.
Please keep working on this and when the time comes we all be all ready to welcome you  KeyID.  So keep on doing the good job bitcoinerS, you got toast support this is great.

I think the idea has merits as well, and we are talking about a third party DAC here, but one that wishes peace and cooperation, among development and community.

As to the timing, I believe team bitcoinerS will be very receptive to suggestions about how to do this in a way that is least disruptive to the community, as that is definitely not the intent.

Offline lovejoy

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Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2014, 08:40:12 pm »
We foresee BitShares DNS DAC accepting some BitAssets from the main BitShares DAC, such as BitUSD as payment for offered services, adding liquidity to the main BitShares DAC.

This is apparently not possible, and was one of the biggest reasons for the merger.

+5% this is getting silly now.
I prefer the word ridiculous, but +5%

1. If the DNS DAC is withdrawing from the merger, they should not be share dropped in the BTS merger.
2. Stop changing things on a whim.
3. This is another thing I HATE about the merger.. it is an incredibly bad practice to release a cryptocurrency, snapshot it, then move to a new chain and deem the old tokens as being extinct. There are many dynamics of why this is bad and I don't care to spend hours explaining it as I feel like it should be common sense.
4. As mentioned previously, there is nothing stopping other DACs from implementing your features. This is another reason for the merger. Other DACs were going to copy BTSX's bitasset feature, there is nothing stopping BTS from doing the same.
5. I thought Toast was doing the DNS DAC, what is Bitcoiners/Toast's relation to the project? This just adds another layer of confusion..
6. Bitshares is starting to look more like a circus than a company. I am not here for entertainment. I am not surprised people are selling BTSX, I am very close to doing so myself. Please don't push me over that line that I am hovering around.

1. There is no withdrawl.  This is proposal for an independent, allied DAC.
2. ...
3. It's messy, there's no question, you're right.  What's the best solution?  I'm confident there are elegant solutions and we will find them, that's what we do.
4. It's a multi-directional street.  We are talking about separate but friendly development teams advancing along mutually beneficial lines and each strengthening the other's hand.
5. I don't wish to speak for Toast, but my understanding is that he will continue working on those features within BTS.  The idea is to have Toast on the BTS team and bitcoinerS keeping a separate but allied DNS DAC alive along mutually beneficial lines of development.
6. This proposal in no way threatens the BTS merger, or the amazing potential of BTS development.  I understand your frustrations, but characterizing this community as a circus will not help the situation.

Offline lovejoy

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Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2014, 08:56:09 pm »
This is not the official DNS team at all! this is completely unrelated to the bitshares team! If people are getting nervous from this thread having been posted, it should be deleted. Chinese people might understand only parts of it and think that DNS is getting restarted and the plans have changed again。
This might be a third party DAC, but they are proposing using the current DNS as proto shares.
So this will have implications for DNS and BTSX. So effectively it's no different from DNS restarting.

As to what happens to the current DNS tokens, that is a big matter to consider for sure.  And I don't personally know what the best answer is.  I think the initial idea was to not lose the underlying base of those who had expressed interest by supporting the project, and carry it forward, also allowing for folks to re-establish a position, but I'm probably not the best person to articulate the nuances of this particular issue.  Seems like something Bytemaster would be able to cut through with laser like clarity.

This is an area which needs to be more clearly fleshed out, I'm just not the one to weigh the options.

Thanks everyone for reading through my attempts at moderating a clear discussion.  You all don't know me very well, but I dearly love this community and want the best for everyone involved.  As the OP states, the first goal is 'broad consensus based on the merits'.  I have known bitcoinerS for many years and I can tell you that they have been one of the strongest advocates and supporters of BTS, and have a deep commitment to do what is best for the community.  I have full faith that we can think through all the angles and implications without resorting to hyperbole, and arrive at a sound conclusion.

Offline CoinHoarder

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Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2014, 09:40:28 pm »
If one really takes the time to grok the OP, and understand it's intent, then all subsequent post would look very different.
It's the English to English translation which concerns me more than anything.

Let's examine this proposal on it's merits, not on all subsequent assumptions being made.  In general I find this community to be a very enlightened bunch, but there are some rather alarmist sentiments (assumptions) being expressed here in this thread.

If there are issues which need to be addressed, let's do that.  Not let the whole thread become a wash of rumor and conjecture.

I'm bits, and at the moment I'm here to help articulate team bitcoinerS position on the matter.  I'm personally dedicated to BTS, and focused on grassroots marketing for BTS, but here I will be able to act in a support capacity for team bitcoinerS and attempt to clear up any misunderstandings.

If the proposal 'as it actually exists' is not desirable, or impossible to articulate, then so be it, it will be modified or laid to rest.

I will now attempt to address your concerns one by one, and then let's see where we are at.

Thanks for your calm consideration.  More to follow.

When I first read the OP it was not clear that this was a third party DAC, I thought the DNS DAC was shifting gears. That affected my response and I'm sure others were confused as well.. as I am a native English speaker. It looks like Toast edited the title to make it clear it is a 3rd party DAC, which was a good move.

1. If the DNS DAC is withdrawing from the merger, they should not be share dropped in the BTS merger.
2. Stop changing things on a whim.
3. This is another thing I HATE about the merger.. it is an incredibly bad practice to release a cryptocurrency, snapshot it, then move to a new chain and deem the old tokens as being extinct. There are many dynamics of why this is bad and I don't care to spend hours explaining it as I feel like it should be common sense.
4. As mentioned previously, there is nothing stopping other DACs from implementing your features. This is another reason for the merger. Other DACs were going to copy BTSX's bitasset feature, there is nothing stopping BTS from doing the same.
5. I thought Toast was doing the DNS DAC, what is Bitcoiners/Toast's relation to the project? This just adds another layer of confusion..
6. Bitshares is starting to look more like a circus than a company. I am not here for entertainment. I am not surprised people are selling BTSX, I am very close to doing so myself. Please don't push me over that line that I am hovering around.

1. There is no withdrawl.  This is proposal for an independent, allied DAC.
2. ...
3. It's messy, there's no question, you're right.  What's the best solution?  I'm confident there are elegant solutions and we will find them, that's what we do.
4. It's a multi-directional street.  We are talking about separate but friendly development teams advancing along mutually beneficial lines and each strengthening the other's hand.
5. I don't wish to speak for Toast, but my understanding is that he will continue working on those features within BTS.  The idea is to have Toast on the BTS team and bitcoinerS keeping a separate but allied DNS DAC alive along mutually beneficial lines of development.
6. This proposal in no way threatens the BTS merger, or the amazing potential of BTS development.  I understand your frustrations, but characterizing this community as a circus will not help the situation.

1. That was not made clear in the OP until a later edit.. I am assuming just before you read the thread and made your first post.
2. Changing incentives of the social contract and playing with dilution was what I was referring to as things that should not be changed on a whim. Again, now that I know it's a 3rd party DAC this doesn't apply.
3. .... A good solution should be found before implementing anything and making an "official" decision. Bitshares is shooting from the hips.
4. What would be mutually beneficial about this? All I see is a potential competitor to BTS's DNS features.
5. I think that is clear now, this is a 3rd party DAC and has nothing to do with Toast or BTS.
6. Yes, now that there has been more clarification I don't think it will affect the merger. I think it still creates unnecessary complication to the ecosystem, confusion among investors and users, and competition for BTS though. I know characterizing this as a circus does not help but I call it like I see it, and again Bitshares is shooting from the hip.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 09:45:15 pm by CoinHoarder »
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Offline ticklebiscuit

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Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2014, 11:38:53 pm »
Bump for money!

Offline amencon

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Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2014, 12:41:03 am »
I support this initiative.  The worst that happens is that this spinoff of DNS DAC is out-competed by BTS.  If some innovation is created with this new DNS DAC and BTS copies it, then all the better.  I'd imagine many people will be invested in both anyway.

Put me on whatever list or mailings you plan if this does move forward.

Thanks.

Offline BTS007

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Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2014, 03:46:13 am »
crazy!crazy!crazy!crazy!!!
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Offline fuzzy

Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2014, 05:15:15 am »
I support this initiative.  The worst that happens is that this spinoff of DNS DAC is out-competed by BTS.  If some innovation is created with this new DNS DAC and BTS copies it, then all the better.  I'd imagine many people will be invested in both anyway.

Put me on whatever list or mailings you plan if this does move forward.

Thanks.

As I see it, the value proposition can go MUCH farther.  Imagine, for instance, that a talented group of developers decide to fork DNS to make a new chain with different innovations (or to make it more friendly to a certain jurisdiction).  Those Devs essentially snapshot current ownership in the forked chain with a large %, can give themselves a small stake or allot a small % for a crowd sale to gain funding to test their metal against other chains' devs.  Those who are successful have NOW MADE A NAME for themselves to the degree where if BTS doesn't pick them up, another SuperDAC will.  If not, the task of simply building on the DNS fork (or even PTS, VOTE...etc for that matter) will likely have made them capable of building their own SuperDAC to rival others. 

Think bigger guys and girls!  This is a potential Multi-Trillion Dollar Industry!  Imagine being sharedropped on 10 different DNS forks, holding them all for 10 years and 2-3 of them ending up reaching valuations of 1+ Billion Dollars, just to be bought out by a SuperDAC (or maybe even more than 1).  Then you have made off QUITE nicely.  If this game is played right and developers know that supporting the community with significant sharedrops is a viable means by which they can earn attention and work to attain legitimacy in the industry...we have essentially made a very positive feedback loop that also protects us with the power of a diversified marketplace while protecting from corruption and also potentially making original holders very wealthy.... 

People see this as bad but I think that is just fear and impatience talking. I see this as potentially one of the best things I could ever imagine.  Sure, it MIGHT take a very small portion of the BTS valuation (initially) but it will spread the word that the bitshares ecosystem is evolving and not just settling into one static, microsoft-like existence.  Think of it as cheap advertising...

When this market can support literally hundreds of forked chains with their own special attributes (like altcoins have), we will know we have made it to where we all want this to go...the moon.  Let's consider these forks as Wormholes that force us to ask "which moon? There are sooooo many!"
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 05:51:25 am by fuzzy »
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Offline lovejoy

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Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2014, 06:53:44 am »
 +5%

words like spring rain in the high desert..  8)

Offline cube

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Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2014, 07:23:38 am »
I support this initiative.  The worst that happens is that this spinoff of DNS DAC is out-competed by BTS.  If some innovation is created with this new DNS DAC and BTS copies it, then all the better.  I'd imagine many people will be invested in both anyway.

Put me on whatever list or mailings you plan if this does move forward.

Thanks.

As I see it, the value proposition can go MUCH farther.  Imagine, for instance, that a talented group of developers decide to fork DNS to make a new chain with different innovations (or to make it more friendly to a certain jurisdiction).  Those Devs essentially snapshot current ownership in the forked chain with a large %, can give themselves a small stake or allot a small % for a crowd sale to gain funding to test their metal against other chains' devs.  Those who are successful have NOW MADE A NAME for themselves to the degree where if BTS doesn't pick them up, another SuperDAC will.  If not, the task of simply building on the DNS fork (or even PTS, VOTE...etc for that matter) will likely have made them capable of building their own SuperDAC to rival others. 

Think bigger guys and girls!  This is a potential Multi-Trillion Dollar Industry!  Imagine being sharedropped on 10 different DNS forks, holding them all for 10 years and 2-3 of them ending up reaching valuations of 1+ Billion Dollars, just to be bought out by a SuperDAC (or maybe even more than 1).  Then you have made off QUITE nicely.  If this game is played right and developers know that supporting the community with significant sharedrops is a viable means by which they can earn attention and work to attain legitimacy in the industry...we have essentially made a very positive feedback loop that also protects us with the power of a diversified marketplace while protecting from corruption and also potentially making original holders very wealthy.... 

People see this as bad but I think that is just fear and impatience talking. I see this as potentially one of the best things I could ever imagine.  Sure, it MIGHT take a very small portion of the BTS valuation (initially) but it will spread the word that the bitshares ecosystem is evolving and not just settling into one static, microsoft-like existence.  Think of it as cheap advertising...

When this market can support literally hundreds of forked chains with their own special attributes (like altcoins have), we will know we have made it to where we all want this to go...the moon.  Let's consider these forks as Wormholes that force us to ask "which moon? There are sooooo many!"

I like that.  The bigger the bitshare ecosystem, the more people will notice us.   +5%
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Offline graffenwalder

Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2014, 08:07:39 am »
I support this initiative.  The worst that happens is that this spinoff of DNS DAC is out-competed by BTS.  If some innovation is created with this new DNS DAC and BTS copies it, then all the better.  I'd imagine many people will be invested in both anyway.

Put me on whatever list or mailings you plan if this does move forward.

Thanks.

As I see it, the value proposition can go MUCH farther.  Imagine, for instance, that a talented group of developers decide to fork DNS to make a new chain with different innovations (or to make it more friendly to a certain jurisdiction).  Those Devs essentially snapshot current ownership in the forked chain with a large %, can give themselves a small stake or allot a small % for a crowd sale to gain funding to test their metal against other chains' devs.  Those who are successful have NOW MADE A NAME for themselves to the degree where if BTS doesn't pick them up, another SuperDAC will.  If not, the task of simply building on the DNS fork (or even PTS, VOTE...etc for that matter) will likely have made them capable of building their own SuperDAC to rival others. 

Think bigger guys and girls!  This is a potential Multi-Trillion Dollar Industry!  Imagine being sharedropped on 10 different DNS forks, holding them all for 10 years and 2-3 of them ending up reaching valuations of 1+ Billion Dollars, just to be bought out by a SuperDAC (or maybe even more than 1).  Then you have made off QUITE nicely.  If this game is played right and developers know that supporting the community with significant sharedrops is a viable means by which they can earn attention and work to attain legitimacy in the industry...we have essentially made a very positive feedback loop that also protects us with the power of a diversified marketplace while protecting from corruption and also potentially making original holders very wealthy.... 

People see this as bad but I think that is just fear and impatience talking. I see this as potentially one of the best things I could ever imagine.  Sure, it MIGHT take a very small portion of the BTS valuation (initially) but it will spread the word that the bitshares ecosystem is evolving and not just settling into one static, microsoft-like existence.  Think of it as cheap advertising...

When this market can support literally hundreds of forked chains with their own special attributes (like altcoins have), we will know we have made it to where we all want this to go...the moon.  Let's consider these forks as Wormholes that force us to ask "which moon? There are sooooo many!"

I like that.  The bigger the bitshare ecosystem, the more people will notice us.   +5%
Yes, maybe we should give Vote, DNS and BTS their own chains. ::)

But for real. The timing for this proposal is just off. If they were to have their own share no problem, but sharedropping on DNS is not a good idea.
We just settled on the merger sharedrop, even giving some DNS from the dev fund to make people whole. And if this were to go through, it would give a small incentive for selling BTSX and buying DNS, making the merger for simplification even more complicated.

Since DNS holders are made whole, I would suggest waiting until after the merger snapshot and just sharedrop on PTS/AGS/BTS in whatever combination you think is best.

Other than that go for it, and good luck.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 08:39:33 am by Graffenwalder »

Offline liondani

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Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2014, 09:16:29 am »
Do we focus on BTS or NOT? Common guys !!!
Let's contribute all on bitshares, because if we divide to a couple of projects I am afraid  we will get the biggest joke in crypto-world after the "merge"!

Offline cube

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Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2014, 10:31:54 am »
Do we focus on BTS or NOT? Common guys !!!
Let's contribute all on bitshares, because if we divide to a couple of projects I am afraid  we will get the biggest joke in crypto-world after the "merge"!

The focus is on BTS.  Having more altcoins does not take the focus off BTC from the BTC users.  Instead, they make BTC the central crypto of all exchanges. Similarly Bitshare is  the centre of attention here.

The crypto world has made tremendous progress in the last few years due to innovations and the diversity of new ideas.  Bitshare is a good example. It would not exist if somebody restricted Dan from using his creativity and stopped his bitshare experiment.  And we would not be here sharing and exchanging ideas.

Let's embrace diversity and reject restrictions.  Let the bright and creative minds continue to innovate.


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Offline fuzzy

Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2014, 10:42:44 am »
Do we focus on BTS or NOT? Common guys !!!
Let's contribute all on bitshares, because if we divide to a couple of projects I am afraid  we will get the biggest joke in crypto-world after the "merge"!

This isn't bitcoin (oh wait...it is surviving quite well despite is thousands of altcoins! :P).  But even better...BTS actually has the ability to GAIN CONSENSUS on which features altchains provide that they would like to adopt.  The shareholders will decide which ones to integrate and which will not.  Bitcoin is inferior precisely because it cannot adapt like BitShares can.  I promise you BTS will not die from this and I certainly to not consider it a hostile takeover.  This is open source space guys and gals.  Whether you like it or not, unfortunately these are the realities we face. 

So what are our choices? 
1) Embrace change and open source
2) Seek out investments in more Centralized Control Structures (some good they have done us thus far!)
3) Support with our funds what we believe in and hold our funds from the projects we do not believe will make it.

This is open source.  There are amazing aspects to it and scary ones.  We either alienate ourselves as a community from those who want to innovate and either compete or be bought out (thus mutually assuring to NEVER be sharedropped on by developers) or we accept it as the name of the game and try to make something valuable from it. 

If anyone sees other choices, I am interested in hearing about them...but sincerely do not see any.  I for one will always invite this kind of thing however.  In fact, you might all be invited rather shortly (within the coming weeks) to a Dev Hangout for BitcoinerS and Alphabar so you can give your opinions and ask your questions there.  :)
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Re: Proposal: To Relaunch KeyID as new (third-party) BitShares DNS DAC
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2014, 12:03:51 pm »
Its a free country, if they want to make one they can. Good luck :)

The thread is quite interesting - you can easily pick out who have invested more in BTS or DNS. Except a handful few, most of the posts can be simplified to personal greediness (including the OP).