Author Topic: Bter hacked. PTS, bitassets withdrawal successful. Share you experience.  (Read 121458 times)

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Offline donkeypong

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Listen to Fuzzy. Running this delegate is a waste of money. Few people will support it and you'll have lost your fee.

Offline fuzzy

However, there is something to be said about running delegates to inflate the supply against people's will for something as unpopular as what many on this thread have termed a "bail out".

Electing 'against people's will' is an oxymoron, if you define the will of the people as the majority vote. If the shareholders want it, it will happen, and the inverse is true as well.

I said nothing of electing.  I said running.   Sure I could stand by silently and watch klosure waste money on registering a delegate that I am fairly certain won't get voted in.   But I might be wrong too...it might get voted in.   
Then again watch what happens to a core of our user base if that happens (especially if the results don't end well). 
I'm not advocating lighting the idea on fire and throwing it in the trash, mind you.   I'm advocating we take measured risks that don't make the heads of some of our most loyal user base blow up in anger.  A delegate is not the way to do this.   I'm personally against it and I have nearly all my personal bts at stake!

I've outlined how I think it should be done...in a way that puts the risks directly on those philosophically inclined to buying out BTER and does it in a way that gives those who take the risk a large portion of the benefit while giving the BitShare's ecosystem some level of Plausible Deniability when Inevitably all those posters with Dan and Stan's heads on communist Russia propaganda start becoming popular memes all over crypto.

The idea of buyng out BTER  could be hugely beneficial.   But I'm vehemently v against putting my eggs in one basket on this...and I have no problem saying so.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 07:02:49 pm by fuzzy »
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Offline lil_jay890

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It would be awesome if somehow we could do this with a UIA...  Send bitUSD to recieve a stake it bitBTER seems like a good way to raise the funds fast from people who want to bail out BTER.  That way you don't have to wait for the delegate to earn enough money to buy bter.  I'm guessing BTER will be gobbled up or liquidated within the next couple weeks.

Offline klosure

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I have a new proposal. I'll develop more on that later, but here is the outline:
We create a bailout fund that will be funded by N delegates. Each time the fund receives delegate payments, it bugs bitBTC and airdrops it to BTER users who registered on Bitshares prorata of their lost BTC holding. This is litterally a vested bail out fund but the vesting schedule is dynamic and adjust with the BTS exchange rate.

No delegates. 

I do not support delegates because this forces people who are obviously against this idea to pay for something they hate.
Delegates are voted. If we create delegates for this fund and they are voted in, it unambiguously means that the majority supports such delegates in which case it was right to create them. If they are not voted in then nothing lost. No matter what is the topic at hand there will always be people opposing specific delegates for whatsoever reason and ending up having to pay for something they didn't aprove if the majority decides otherwise.

Let me play the devil's advocate: your delegate fuzzy... Was it voted in unanimously? If not are you paying back the stakeholders who didn't vote you in by airdropping on them their prorated share of your delegate income? If not where have gone your moral qualms about making minority stake holders pay for something they didn't approve?

Let's push that one notch further. I proposed a fund backed by N delegates. N is the adjustment variable to be modulated according to the majority's opinion of what would be a proper bail out and BTER's feedback on whether our vested bailout proposal would be deemed sufficient to takeover the brand. If appetite is moderate N could very well be 1. This would still be better than nothing for BTC holders and could result in a fast bailout should BTS value take off. 1 delegate would cost the same as you fuzzy. So now let me ask the question you know was coming: can you say with a straightface that your work for Bitshares brings more value than the entire BTER user base creating a Bitshares wallet, testing it and revisiting monthly to withdraw their monthly bail out installment?

Ok that was quite provocating but that was needed to put my point across. I know you are doing a great job fuzzy and deserve that delegate. The point I'm trying to make is that onboarding the entire BTER user base and keeping them coming back regularly would add tremendous value to the network that no single voted delegate would be able to emulate, specially after these have understood that they now have a vested interest in Bitshares success. That is well worth 1 delegate don't you think?

do not want to trade a user base over at BTER (who might simply bail and go to a competitor after they regain access to their funds) for an already loyal COMMUNITY here
There is no trading one thing for another. As  always the community will support whatever its majority has decided to do because that's the consensus on which Bitshares is based and something every stakeholder accepted when they joined Bitshare.
Regarding the BTER user base, what I propose forces them to be faithful since the bailout will unfold over a period of months to years depending on the price of BTS and the number of delegated given to the bail out fund. They will have to create a wallet and visit every so often to witdraw their accrued balance. This opens a good window of opportunity to try to convince them that Bitshares is worth their while and makes 80% of the distance from a prospect to a user.

Let people buy in if they want to.  Get contact with BTER
I will contact BTER once I have the funding nailed. Contacting them now to offer them nothing concrete is a waste of time. I also expect that they must be flooded by messages from their angry users so it will certainly help if the message is delivered through the usual official channel so that it doesn't end up being garbaged by a support staff.

Another thing I didn't have the time to explain earlier: since BTER is willing to hand over the brand and website and dissolve the company there won't be a need to keep the central exchange running with the same staff. That means we can transform BTER in whatever we want: a Bitshares centric exchange, a gateway.

If that happens I'm willing to roll my sleeves and help migrating BTER to a new Bitshares centric backend. But first we need to nail the funding aspect.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 06:21:45 pm by klosure »

Offline fluxer555

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However, there is something to be said about running delegates to inflate the supply against people's will for something as unpopular as what many on this thread have termed a "bail out".

Electing 'against people's will' is an oxymoron, if you define the will of the people as the majority vote. If the shareholders want it, it will happen, and the inverse is true as well.

Offline nomoreheroes7

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Wall street bailouts led to the biggest rally in the us stock market in history... I know many of you are zero hedge tinfoil hat people and think it's rigged, but you are rich if you bought stocks when the banks were bailed out.

Wrong.  You would be rich if you had bought bitcoin when the banks were bailed out.  You would not have even tripled your money in stocks.  Google the greatest stock market rallies in history.  This one is not it.

Not here to argue what the greatest investment in the world was from 2008 onward... Just saying the bailouts led to a huge rally in stocks and maybe a bailout here would lead to a similar result.

Well I will down vote a bailout delegate and I am sure others will to.

Exactly, we can always do that.

来自我的 M040 上的 Tapatalk

I haven't looked too in-depth at voting, but I thought the rules were that you could only "approve" a delegate that you like, and it wasn't possible to "downvote" delegates you don't agree with...?

But yea, it's fairly obvious a delegate specifically for this wouldn't gain very wide approval. But that's the beauty of BitShares -- the delegate can be made and the shareholders can come to a consensus with their voting power. If the widespread consensus is against any kind of bailout, that will be shown through votes. Sounds fair to me.

Offline merlin0113

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Wall street bailouts led to the biggest rally in the us stock market in history... I know many of you are zero hedge tinfoil hat people and think it's rigged, but you are rich if you bought stocks when the banks were bailed out.

Wrong.  You would be rich if you had bought bitcoin when the banks were bailed out.  You would not have even tripled your money in stocks.  Google the greatest stock market rallies in history.  This one is not it.

Not here to argue what the greatest investment in the world was from 2008 onward... Just saying the bailouts led to a huge rally in stocks and maybe a bailout here would lead to a similar result.

Well I will down vote a bailout delegate and I am sure others will to.

Exactly, we can always do that.

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Offline Helikopterben

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Wall street bailouts led to the biggest rally in the us stock market in history... I know many of you are zero hedge tinfoil hat people and think it's rigged, but you are rich if you bought stocks when the banks were bailed out.

Wrong.  You would be rich if you had bought bitcoin when the banks were bailed out.  You would not have even tripled your money in stocks.  Google the greatest stock market rallies in history.  This one is not it.

Not here to argue what the greatest investment in the world was from 2008 onward... Just saying the bailouts led to a huge rally in stocks and maybe a bailout here would lead to a similar result.

Well I will down vote a bailout delegate and I am sure others will to.

Offline lil_jay890

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Wall street bailouts led to the biggest rally in the us stock market in history... I know many of you are zero hedge tinfoil hat people and think it's rigged, but you are rich if you bought stocks when the banks were bailed out.

Wrong.  You would be rich if you had bought bitcoin when the banks were bailed out.  You would not have even tripled your money in stocks.  Google the greatest stock market rallies in history.  This one is not it.

Not here to argue what the greatest investment in the world was from 2008 onward... Just saying the bailouts led to a huge rally in stocks and maybe a bailout here would lead to a similar result.


Offline Helikopterben

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Wall street bailouts led to the biggest rally in the us stock market in history... I know many of you are zero hedge tinfoil hat people and think it's rigged, but you are rich if you bought stocks when the banks were bailed out.

Wrong.  You would be rich if you had bought bitcoin when the banks were bailed out.  You would not have even tripled your money in stocks.  Google the greatest stock market rallies in history.  This one is not it.

Offline lil_jay890

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Wall street bailouts led to the biggest rally in the us stock market in history... I know many of you are zero hedge tinfoil hat people and think it's rigged, but you are rich if you bought stocks when the banks were bailed out.

Offline fuzzy

If they are selling it off, what happens to the snapshots and vested balances? I hope BM or someone is in communication with them.

I have reached out to them to get information on what is going on behind the scenes.  Lets see if I can get any traction.

Just let everyone to feel comfortable to discuss within this community. We lost many decent people already due to this very reason.
I honestly have no clue why anyone would not feel comfortable discussing anything in this community.  We are probably one of the most open communities with respect to this.  As for me--I never told anyone not to talk.  Please never take my statements that way. 

However, there is something to be said about running delegates to inflate the supply against people's will for something as unpopular as what many on this thread have termed a "bail out".  Add onto that the fact that some people even think I am interested in it to get back my own funds...and I think it is easy to see why I am against it. 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 12:26:08 pm by fuzzy »
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sumantso

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If they are selling it off, what happens to the snapshots and vested balances? I hope BM or someone is in communication with them.

Offline merlin0113

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I think to reach a full consensus is impossible, and you are just a one among many. So stop using this ruling tongue.

I don't understand what you mean.  What ruling tongue? 

I'm confused.

Just let everyone to feel comfortable to discuss within this community. We lost many decent people already due to this very reason.

Offline fuzzy

I think to reach a full consensus is impossible, and you are just a one among many. So stop using this ruling tongue.

I don't understand what you mean.  What ruling tongue? 

I'm confused.
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