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Offline phoenix

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Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #60 on: December 26, 2013, 06:30:43 PM »
Given that, my incentives suggest I should wait to invest because since total investment in Angelshares is capped per day, there's probably a lot of pent up demand that will be very impatient and maybe not think so much about the value they're getting for their investment, in their rush to invest.

Problem is, that's actually a disservice you're doing the people who want to help you reach your goal.  You're saying - Ok, I'm offering interest and you should all compete against each other to see who wants it most, but if tomorrow none of you show up I'm going to sell it all to Lighthouse for a dollar because those are the rules I invented!

If you designed this system to allow people with a lot of capital to invest in you, it's a loser.  It requires either minimum daily micromanagement or is basically picking pricing with a blindfold on.

Honestly the "minimum daily micromanagement" takes what, 15 seconds? Or if you plan to be AFK, do you have a computer you can leave a cron job on? I could write a guide on how to set that up if there's enough interest

It could take longer if you want to get better deals. But I think there will be 2 main strategies: Throw a bunch of PTS/BTC at the donation address early in the day and hope that everyone else decides that the rate they would get for investing would be to low, or, wait until the last minute to try to grab as many Angel Shares as possible for as few PTS/BTC as possible
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Online Shentist

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Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2013, 09:09:09 PM »
1 question

Quote
We have chosen 50-50 for our first DAC to equally honor mining-lottery and patron-donor schools of thought. 

For our first BitShares DAC:

Allocate 50% of its shares to ProtoShares holders at genesis.
Allocate 50% of its shares to AngelShares holders at genesis.

We will scale the total share count to 4 million shares, equally divided between the two schools.

what does "our first" mean?

Thanks

Offline phoenix

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Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #62 on: December 26, 2013, 09:18:38 PM »
1 question

Quote
We have chosen 50-50 for our first DAC to equally honor mining-lottery and patron-donor schools of thought. 

For our first BitShares DAC:

Allocate 50% of its shares to ProtoShares holders at genesis.
Allocate 50% of its shares to AngelShares holders at genesis.

We will scale the total share count to 4 million shares, equally divided between the two schools.

what does "our first" mean?

Thanks

There will be multiple versions of Bitshares, but only the first will be a 50-50 split between ProtoShares and AngelShares
Protoshares: Pg5EhSZEXHFjdFUzpxJbm91UtA54iUuDvt
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Online Shentist

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Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2013, 09:57:14 PM »
ok, and after 10% proto and 10% angelshares. Do i understand it correct?

Offline bytemaster

Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2013, 09:58:57 PM »
After that is undefined but may be more than 10%.


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Offline MrJeans

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Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2013, 10:30:17 PM »
After that is undefined but may be more than 10%.
So PTS will account for 10% or more of BitShares?
And AngelShares may account for 10% or more?
Will PTS and AGS always count for the same percentage of BitShares?

I believe the introduction of AGS is unfair to PTS early adopters.
I purchased PTS under the impression that all PTS will represent 10% of bitshares. And the remainder 90% of BitShares will be distributed to miners (through their mining) and to BitShare holders (through half of mining rewards).

Under this original agreement if PTS holders keep the BitShares they get, for the 12 years it takes to mine all BitShares, they would end up with 55% of BitShares in existence.

In a 50:50 split with AGS, PTS holders are reduced to 50% of BitShares.

If AGS gets 10% and PTS gets 10% then PTS early adopters end up with 30% of BitShares if they hold them for the 12 year period.

I hope I didnt mix up my maths, but from this it looks like the original deal (when I bought PTS) promised me a 450% growth in number of BitShares over 12 years. Now I am looking at a possible 200% growth in 12 years.

Offline MrJeans

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Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2013, 10:40:30 PM »

So you raised over 100BTC worth of PTS from something that is basically free for you to do, pretty successful initiative!

+1

It will fund a team working on keyhotee for a couple of months.  Enough to get a pretty nice user experience.     Our polish devs have been working hard on it,  unfortunately they don't work for pts.


I believed the PTS launch was more successful than expected. Thus Invictus has more money than they expected to, right?

So why the need for more funding via AngelShares? Was this the plan all along?

I dont mean to be so critical, I believe Invictus is really doing something great here.
I just dont understand why there is a need for more funding at this stage if venture capital was successfully obtained and PTS launch was such a success.

Now it looks like either the original plan was set under-budget. Or the plan was to just get some cash, see how far it goes, and then get some more.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 10:43:58 PM by MrJeans »

Online cryptkeeper

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Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #67 on: December 26, 2013, 10:48:52 PM »
So how will I get my angelshares?

Offline phoenix

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Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #68 on: December 26, 2013, 10:51:01 PM »

So you raised over 100BTC worth of PTS from something that is basically free for you to do, pretty successful initiative!

+1

It will fund a team working on keyhotee for a couple of months.  Enough to get a pretty nice user experience.     Our polish devs have been working hard on it,  unfortunately they don't work for pts.


I believed the PTS launch was more successful than expected. Thus Invictus has more money than they expected to, right?

So why the need for more funding via AngelShares? Was this the plan all along?

I dont mean to be so critical, I believe Invictus is really doing something great here.
I just dont understand why there is a need for more funding at this stage if venture capital was successfully obtained and PTS launch was such a success.

Now it looks like either the original plan was set under-budget. Or the plan was to just get some cash, see how far it goes, and then get some more.

Not all of the Angel Share funding is going towards Bitshares. I3 is investing it into the development and marketing for even more DACs, so this isn't just short-term funding, it's long term funding.
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Offline phoenix

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Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #69 on: December 26, 2013, 10:52:55 PM »
So how will I get my angelshares?

Technically you won't get Angel Shares. You just get credited the Angel Shares to the address that sent the donation, and then you receive shares in future DACs. Angel Shares are not trade-able, they're a long term investment.
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Offline fluxer555

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Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #70 on: December 26, 2013, 11:06:07 PM »
How will it be possible to obtain our DAC shares with only our PTS public key associated with how much we own?

Offline bytemaster

Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #71 on: December 26, 2013, 11:08:29 PM »
How will it be possible to obtain our DAC shares with only our PTS public key associated with how much we own?

You will simply import your PTS wallet into BitShares and other DACs and it will scan the genesis block for your balance.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2013, 11:14:27 PM »

So you raised over 100BTC worth of PTS from something that is basically free for you to do, pretty successful initiative!

+1

It will fund a team working on keyhotee for a couple of months.  Enough to get a pretty nice user experience.     Our polish devs have been working hard on it,  unfortunately they don't work for pts.


I believed the PTS launch was more successful than expected. Thus Invictus has more money than they expected to, right?

So why the need for more funding via AngelShares? Was this the plan all along?

I dont mean to be so critical, I believe Invictus is really doing something great here.
I just dont understand why there is a need for more funding at this stage if venture capital was successfully obtained and PTS launch was such a success.

Now it looks like either the original plan was set under-budget. Or the plan was to just get some cash, see how far it goes, and then get some more.

PTS was successful but didn't actually raise any cash for Invictus because we had to mine/buy like everyone else.  The goal of PTS was to allow people to start mining BTS prior to launch and to allow the market to establish a price which it was VERY successful at doing.   PTS built the community, this forum, and generated the attention we required to move forward.   Obviously everyone here wants to see things happen faster than we could do with our budget and also has a vested interest in seeing this evolve so now we are working with everyone to grow the value of PTS.

In other words PTS was not a way to raise funds, but a give away to build a community. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Bitcoinfan

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Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2013, 11:59:01 PM »
How will it be possible to obtain our DAC shares with only our PTS public key associated with how much we own?

You will simply import your PTS wallet into BitShares and other DACs and it will scan the genesis block for your balance.


How do you get this for angels shares that were obtained from bitcoins?  Will angel shares be sent to that bitcoin address?  Or do we have to import that Bitcoin wallet into Bitshares?  That sounds like its going to be a mess if we have to do that. 

Offline bytemaster

Re: Announcing Angel Shares & BitShares Allocation
« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2013, 12:00:17 AM »
After that is undefined but may be more than 10%.
So PTS will account for 10% or more of BitShares?
And AngelShares may account for 10% or more?
Will PTS and AGS always count for the same percentage of BitShares?

I believe the introduction of AGS is unfair to PTS early adopters.
I purchased PTS under the impression that all PTS will represent 10% of bitshares. And the remainder 90% of BitShares will be distributed to miners (through their mining) and to BitShare holders (through half of mining rewards).

Under this original agreement if PTS holders keep the BitShares they get, for the 12 years it takes to mine all BitShares, they would end up with 55% of BitShares in existence.

In a 50:50 split with AGS, PTS holders are reduced to 50% of BitShares.

If AGS gets 10% and PTS gets 10% then PTS early adopters end up with 30% of BitShares if they hold them for the 12 year period.

I hope I didn't mix up my maths, but from this it looks like the original deal (when I bought PTS) promised me a 450% growth in number of BitShares over 12 years. Now I am looking at a possible 200% growth in 12 years.

Your math is accurate but incomplete.  Lets see if I can help clear some things up while also adding important details that affect valuation increase for PTS holders.

Under the original deal, holding your BTS would have resulted in 55% after 10 years (majority of the debasement in the first year) factoring in 50/50 dividends and under AGS your cut would be 50% from day one.  If you stop your analysis here then I can see some potential for concern because all else being equal it could be viewed as a bad deal.   However, not everything else is equal.

You went from owning a share of a company (DAC) which had to pay 50% of its earnings (transaction fees) to miners to burn them up while also serving to centralize control in economies of scale to owning a share of a company (DAC) which can pay you 100% of its earnings.  This alone DOUBLES the value of the new BTS vs the old BTS.   You also went from owning 55% of a company that has $500K to grow on to owning 50% of a company with several million backing it and therefore much better adoption and support.   

If you ignore the stock-split effect of the original BTS dividend design, then what you have is a DAC that was charging you a 20% wealth tax to pay miners the first year and then taking 50% of the profits.   Now you get a DAC with no wealth tax paying you 100% of the profits.  The question becomes what kind of revenue will be generated from transaction fees because this will determine how long it takes before PTS holders under AGS surpass PTS holders under the original design in terms of percent ownership.   In terms of the value proposition you come out ahead in the first year based on the value being 2x the old value (when viewed as a revenue stream). 

One last detail is that if PTS holders contribute just 5% of their PTS to get AGS then they will have significantly increased their cut from 50% to 75% while providing $1 million worth of PTS to fund development and promotion.   Essentially, we have given PTS holders a way to repurpose their debasement due to mining toward more productive activities that increase the value of BTS and PTS.   

I hope this helps.



 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

 

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