Active (un)voting initiative II

[tbone]

What I meant was that the concept of getting paid for anything other than being a delegate would go away with 2.0, correct?  So my understanding is that under the new system, DataSecurityNode would have to submit a worker proposal which would then be voted on by stakeholders.  So a natural vetting process should take place under those circumstances.  That process should become more effective with 2.0 considering there will be greater participation since people who can't currently vote will soon be able to via the new web wallet.

In any event, I think the MineBitshares project is promising, but I also think the hard questions need to be asked of this or any project paid for by stakeholders.  And I also think you have already asked an important question that should be answered.  Where will the profits go?  And on this front I think there has been some obfuscation (most likely unintentional) with respect to 2 different types of profits i.e. profits for participating miners vs. profits for the business itself, and I think DataSecurityNode needs to be more aware of that as he makes his case.   I would also like to know if, once 2.0 is released, he will be seeking the equivalent of 7 100% delegates worth of current monthly pay going forward, and for how long.  My apologies if that has already been clearly expressed.

Not only that, but delegate pay will only last another month, correct?  So what is the fuss really about?  Am I missing something here?

It seems to me that people make this a bigger monster than it is, simply because they hear the "dilution" word.

Bingo. It's a great talking point but the numbers just don't justify the animosity.

The concept of delegate pay is not abolished with 2.0.

It's about increasing the "quality control" and raising the bar for delegate / worker proposal standards (being as explicit as possible). See also: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18362.msg235704.html#msg235704

A little bit more dilution might not be that relevant (it can have a negative symbolic effect if liquidty is low and the delegate pay is sold right away) but the efficiency of the hiring process of DPOS is only as good as the public disocurse about the proposals. I saw low voting participation and zero discussion so I started the discussion.

[santaclause102]

Not only that, but delegate pay will only last another month, correct?  So what is the fuss really about?  Am I missing something here?

It seems to me that people make this a bigger monster than it is, simply because they hear the "dilution" word.

Bingo. It's a great talking point but the numbers just don't justify the animosity.

The concept of delegate pay is not abolished with 2.0.

It's about increasing the "quality control" and raising the bar for delegate / worker proposal standards (being as explicit as possible). See also: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18362.msg235704.html#msg235704

A little bit more dilution might not be that relevant (it can have a negative symbolic effect if liquidty is low and the delegate pay is sold right away) but the efficiency of the hiring process of DPOS is only as good as the public disocurse about the proposals. I saw low voting participation and zero discussion so I started the discussion.

[tbone]

Not only that, but delegate pay will only last another month, correct?  So what is the fuss really about?  Am I missing something here?

It seems to me that people make this a bigger monster than it is, simply because they hear the "dilution" word.

Bingo. It's a great talking point but the numbers just don't justify the animosity.

[Riverhead]

It seems to me that people make this a bigger monster than it is, simply because they hear the "dilution" word.

Bingo. It's a great talking point but the numbers just don't justify the animosity.

[BTSdac]

I didn't want to hijack delulo's thread but I have to say this. I'm not a crypto person. I'm a equities and commodities trader. I have accumulated millions of Bts over time but have never voted. Part of the reason why is because Bts is not easy for me to understand. It's not my world. I do listen to Beyond Bitcoin and the discussion there is always informative and professional. And I always leave feeling quite inspired. But searching for basic information here on the forum is a pain. And the people here are toxic. I actually never realized that some delegates were receiving 10 million Bts per annum. That's a ton of dilution. As a matter of fact that's more than I have. Is that a simple calculation? Yes. But instead of bitching about it you should be asking yourselves why is it that forum members don't know this basic info and how it can be more readily available and easy to access. My mistake for thinking that this forum was designed to answer questions.

This thread is about voter apathy right? To be honest I'm pretty sick and tired of this place. When the price recovers a bit I'll be selling.

1 delegate gets roughly 140k bts monthly. At today's market cap that works out to about $400

So about 30 paid delegates @ $400 per month is $12K monthly dilution.   
Have BitShareholders received at least $12K worth of value per month?

what you mean  "BitShareholders received $12K worth of value per month" ?

[BTSdac]

MineBitshares (5/7 (!) 100% delegates!)
I have added MineBitshares to my personal unvoting list. Why? Because it has 5 (!!) 100% delegates  in the Top 101 and 2 more 100% percent delegates at 102 and 104. I think Jonathan is a good guy with many talents but the total of 7 100% delegates we are talking about here is A LOT OF DILUTION for an unproven marketing effort! See

yes  I think so  ,
MinerBitshares  is a good thing for BTS system ,
but 7 delegates is too much , it would make BTS become 7/36=20% POW coin ,

[fuzzy]

IN THE END: If such a public discussion is not possible because one is afraid that the to be unvoted delegate may not like you anymore than that is negative for DPOS. DPOS can live without such an open public discussion too but a lot less effective.  Let's establish a culture of content focus instead of one of politics and advertisement, see https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18196.0.html

 

Before anybody goes nuts over MineBitShares... I did mention a post coming today to talk about updates in the MineBitShares forum area. Pretty underhanded to fire off an attack like this without first seeing that....

...I had to loan out my own money to get things started. For the sake of getting the pool update delivered and not thinking people would post nutty uninformed posts like this, I did that...

Yeah.  We have some work to do.  I totally get that you disagree with delulo, but I don't think his post was underhanded or nutty.  I think responding in this way is a deterrent to honest discussion, and I think the first iteration of this thread showed that we can overcome voter apathy with such honest discussion.

[santaclause102]

*HUGHS* back my friend!
It was never my intention to shut down your project. I just want to understand it and have everything as explicit as possible.

I didn't recognize your post that you would make an update. I was just scanning your post in the old thread for an answer to my question. I posted it after I had not seen any.
By saying it was underhanded you interpret my intentions which you can't know. I can just say what I said above.

With that said I think there are questions unasnwered, see your new thread.

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

Before anybody goes nuts over MineBitShares... I did mention a post coming today to talk about updates in the MineBitShares forum area. Pretty underhanded to fire off an attack like this without first seeing that.

It's actually thanks to the recent delegates getting voted in that I decided to get programming work underway. What I had saved up from our delegates that last few months wasn't even enough for the initial deposit to get started with our market cap. I had to loan out my own money to get things started. For the sake of getting the pool update delivered and not thinking people would post nutty uninformed posts like this, I did that. We lose the funding for those delegates now.. you just cut off our updates and growth at the knees when we could have had a nice shiny new competitive pool by next month. It took over 500,000 BTS just to get the additional programming work STARTED.. it takes more than 3 months of saving up every single BTS of a 100% delegate to amount to that... and we are still paying out bonuses.

I would prefer not to be put further into debt and have the project not move forward because of one rant.

Also regarding Chronos... I am pretty sure people were more in agreement to see that continue to go towards core dev.

dev.sidhujag has been down for weeks now.. all indications are he has Gensoed and should be voted down.

I can feel your pain since you seem to have fronted some of your own money here. I am just trying to get the maximum transparency out of it. And I guess that is in the interest of everyone.
I hope we can keep up an open and rational discussion so the public and shareholders can see where their funds are put. Attacking any efforts to increase transparency and public discussion is against the public hiring process inherent to DPOS.

"underhanded"... I did not just post this without asking questions, see https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16340.msg232666.html#msg232666

But I don't want to talk about any personal thing or insulations

On the content:
I read your new proposal. The crucial question is whether the final revenue of this "business" (referral commissions from the wallet provider that bitshares-mining will become) will go to those that finance it's development (bts holders through delegate pay) or to you. See my full post here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18253.msg233360.html#msg233360

Again, this is not personal. If you we don't manage to make these kinds of discussion impersonal DPOS loses.

This discussion is actually continuing in our UPDATE thread: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18253.msg233450.html#msg233450

Also.. it was underhanded. You started this thread literally just over 3 hours after I had posted in the MineBitShares forum about an update coming the very next day. I would have posted it that same night, but I had fought with the Bitshares client for over 8 hours that night to the point I couldn't even get miner payouts out that night : https://twitter.com/minebitshares/status/638584033400758272 .. So I made due with telling everyone update was coming the next day... imagine my surprise when I woke up to your attack.

Our Post: on: September 01, 2015, 05:51:57 AM » https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18246.msg233215.html#msg233215
Your Post: on: September 01, 2015, 09:04:05 AM » https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18249.msg233236.html#msg233236

When I got the update out: September 01, 2015, 04:00:06 PM » https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18253.msg233301.html#msg233301

In other words you launched this shortly after I went to sleep. That is underhanded. That's not rational transparency as you are peddling it. It's just what I said it is. Don't take it personally. I just want everyone to have a transparent discussion like you said. I can understand now why you don't want to talk about that after justify it with redirects to old links. Now that it's settled though and everyone can see what is what we can move on. *HUGS*

If you really want this project to shutdown as you are reasoning it should, I am looking forward to your numbers that show your option to be superior... but please lets move it to our thread where everyone can see.

[santaclause102]

Before anybody goes nuts over MineBitShares... I did mention a post coming today to talk about updates in the MineBitShares forum area. Pretty underhanded to fire off an attack like this without first seeing that.

It's actually thanks to the recent delegates getting voted in that I decided to get programming work underway. What I had saved up from our delegates that last few months wasn't even enough for the initial deposit to get started with our market cap. I had to loan out my own money to get things started. For the sake of getting the pool update delivered and not thinking people would post nutty uninformed posts like this, I did that. We lose the funding for those delegates now.. you just cut off our updates and growth at the knees when we could have had a nice shiny new competitive pool by next month. It took over 500,000 BTS just to get the additional programming work STARTED.. it takes more than 3 months of saving up every single BTS of a 100% delegate to amount to that... and we are still paying out bonuses.

I would prefer not to be put further into debt and have the project not move forward because of one rant.

Also regarding Chronos... I am pretty sure people were more in agreement to see that continue to go towards core dev.

dev.sidhujag has been down for weeks now.. all indications are he has Gensoed and should be voted down.

I can feel your pain since you seem to have fronted some of your own money here. I am just trying to get the maximum transparency out of it. And I guess that is in the interest of everyone.
I hope we can keep up an open and rational discussion so the public and shareholders can see where their funds are put. Attacking any efforts to increase transparency and public discussion is against the public hiring process inherent to DPOS.

"underhanded"... I did not just post this without asking questions, see https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16340.msg232666.html#msg232666

But I don't want to talk about any personal thing or insulations

On the content:
I read your new proposal. The crucial question is whether the final revenue of this "business" (referral commissions from the wallet provider that bitshares-mining will become) will go to those that finance it's development (bts holders through delegate pay) or to you. See my full post here https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,18253.msg233360.html#msg233360

Again, this is not personal. If you we don't manage to make these kinds of discussion impersonal DPOS loses.

[Stan]

So about 30 paid delegates @ $400 per month is $12K monthly dilution.   
Have BitShareholders received at least $12K worth of value per month?

How would you propose we measure that shareholder value Stan?

Value is in the eye of the beholder.  I, myself, have little use for a pound of caviar (or chocolate vegemite). 
So each shareholder should ask that question for herself.

[Thom]

I didn't want to hijack delulo's thread but I have to say this. I'm not a crypto person. I'm a equities and commodities trader. I have accumulated millions of Bts over time but have never voted. Part of the reason why is because Bts is not easy for me to understand. It's not my world. I do listen to Beyond Bitcoin and the discussion there is always informative and professional. And I always leave feeling quite inspired. But searching for basic information here on the forum is a pain. And the people here are toxic. I actually never realized that some delegates were receiving 10 million Bts per annum. That's a ton of dilution. As a matter of fact that's more than I have. Is that a simple calculation? Yes. But instead of bitching about it you should be asking yourselves why is it that forum members don't know this basic info and how it can be more readily available and easy to access. My mistake for thinking that this forum was designed to answer questions.

This thread is about voter apathy right? To be honest I'm pretty sick and tired of this place. When the price recovers a bit I'll be selling.

You're going to sell your investment because someone wasn't nice to you on a forum?  And why the hell are you investing in something you don't understand?

That is a most excellent reply. I find it interesting that a "trader" would make such a statement. Perhaps he should call himself a "speculator" instead. Regardless, I don't care much for the type, who seem to be more into hype than real substance or value. Whatever makes a profit. I find such an attitude that disregards underlying value and prioritizes profit above all to be a big factor in the financial corruption we see so prevalent in the financial world today.

There is nothing wrong with making a profit, so long as doing so doesn't enable aggression and violation of the NAP. So companies like Haliburton and their ilk who suck off the state tit sicken me.

Investment requires risk. Becoming a good investor means learning how to evaluate risk, which requires a basic level of understanding of the nature of the thing being invested in. Speculators want to reduce that effort to as close to zero as they can, but there is no free lunch.

[Thom]

So about 30 paid delegates @ $400 per month is $12K monthly dilution.   
Have BitShareholders received at least $12K worth of value per month?

How would you propose we measure that shareholder value Stan?

The question is valid, but I'd be willing to bet many would say their value is declining with the marketcap. For the record I'm not one of them. I'm in it for the long haul, for the vision. Only when I believe the vision is abandoned or there is no hope in achieving it will I say bye bye.

[Ander]

I didn't want to hijack delulo's thread but I have to say this. I'm not a crypto person. I'm a equities and commodities trader. I have accumulated millions of Bts over time but have never voted. Part of the reason why is because Bts is not easy for me to understand. It's not my world. I do listen to Beyond Bitcoin and the discussion there is always informative and professional. And I always leave feeling quite inspired. But searching for basic information here on the forum is a pain. And the people here are toxic. I actually never realized that some delegates were receiving 10 million Bts per annum. That's a ton of dilution. As a matter of fact that's more than I have. Is that a simple calculation? Yes. But instead of bitching about it you should be asking yourselves why is it that forum members don't know this basic info and how it can be more readily available and easy to access. My mistake for thinking that this forum was designed to answer questions.

This thread is about voter apathy right? To be honest I'm pretty sick and tired of this place. When the price recovers a bit I'll be selling.

A paid delegate at max pay for a full year is 1.56M BTS. 
If you are referring to bunkermining wanting 7 paid delegates, they want this to fun the mining pool bonus and to pay coders for development work to build the mining pool.  Only 4 of them are elected currently, and for most of the time it has been 1-2. 


I agree that it would be nice if there were better ways to communicate information to new people, but BTS is complicated, and there are a lot of concepts to try and understand. 


Regarding 'people here being toxic':  Its a bear market, many people are upset.  Thats probably the main reason.  Also a few people actively attempt to be toxic to try to get the price down, for whatever reason.  But there are also plenty of positive people trying to build something and help people.

[Stan]

I didn't want to hijack delulo's thread but I have to say this. I'm not a crypto person. I'm a equities and commodities trader. I have accumulated millions of Bts over time but have never voted. Part of the reason why is because Bts is not easy for me to understand. It's not my world. I do listen to Beyond Bitcoin and the discussion there is always informative and professional. And I always leave feeling quite inspired. But searching for basic information here on the forum is a pain. And the people here are toxic. I actually never realized that some delegates were receiving 10 million Bts per annum. That's a ton of dilution. As a matter of fact that's more than I have. Is that a simple calculation? Yes. But instead of bitching about it you should be asking yourselves why is it that forum members don't know this basic info and how it can be more readily available and easy to access. My mistake for thinking that this forum was designed to answer questions.

This thread is about voter apathy right? To be honest I'm pretty sick and tired of this place. When the price recovers a bit I'll be selling.

1 delegate gets roughly 140k bts monthly. At today's market cap that works out to about $400

So about 30 paid delegates @ $400 per month is $12K monthly dilution.   
Have BitShareholders received at least $12K worth of value per month?