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Messages - lil_jay890

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76
Ken, thank you for the updates.  What portion of time are you dedicating to the the wallet improvements vs stealth? I think the vast majority of your investors are more interested in stealth than in any other aspect of blockpay.

Maybe I am to only one, but most of the details you post in the updates fly over my head. I'm guessing that's the case for most investors as well.  What I would really like to know is an ETA on stealth, and if that ETA is more than a few months out, what can be done to expedite it.  Unless there is a pressing need to update the wallet in order to integrate stealth, I believe most resources should be dedicated to releasing stealth as soon as possible.

Also, I think investors should be updated on the business development side.  What happened with the coffee shop and large electronics company?  What about oodoo?

77
Im not a witness but one day would want to run for a witness I just think one million bts is crazy I think this will make it for the new ppl that want to run not afford to be a witness and BitShares will probably get a bad wrap like dash and the masternodes it just feels like everyone who's a witness now can secure their spot

If a "bad wrap" grows bitshares market cap 10x what it is now, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
Im sure no one would but it was meant to say its not going to the point is you need 1000 dash to run a masternode thats over 10,000 so new investors cant run a node without putting up a lot of money so all the guys who paid a 1000 to get a masternode back when dash was a dollar have secured their spot making it very hard for new ppl to get in so how do you expect new comers with good ideas looking to be a whitness but cant because u need 1 millon bts thats a good way to attract new ppl

There are only 23 witness's right now, with another 33 in stand by.  If you don't have $4,000 to lock up as collateral for a blockchain that you are securing, I don't want you as a witness.  You could be too easily swayed (financially) to hurt the system.  Especially if you have nothing to lose by damaging it.

The whole "nothing to loose" argument is weak IMO. It fails to recognize money is not the only thing that motivates people. You should have learned that by now from those who built this platform. Integrity can indeed be tested with money, and to deny it plays a role in influencing behavior is naive. It is also naive to believe nothing can be a stronger motivator than money.

DSN's little experiment was interesting, but it failed to measure the commitment level of witnesses. It wasn't designed to do that, but rather to gather information about proxy voting and what voter's actually value.

Thom, while I agree with you that some may value morals over money, few have been tested with that dilemma.  I know you are a steadfast bitshares supporter and have been here a long time.  From your comments here and on beyond bitcoin, I know that you value your principles more than money and you believe BTS is a platform that aligns with your principles.  It would be great if all the witness's were like you.

That said,  very little is known about these witness's.  Most haven't posted any personal information and remain mostly anonymous other than there internet rep.  Trusting anonymous internet people has burned BTS before, remember Gentso and Cryptosmith? 

The unique thing about witness's is that they get to produce blocks with relatively inexpensive equipment.  I know this costs money, but it is vastly cheaper than keeping up to date mining operations for bitcoin.  I think having the witness's put up 4000 in collateral isn't that bad... They only lose that if they damage the system, otherwise they can cease being a witness and do what they wish with their million BTS.

I think you are fooling yourself if you think money doesn't play a role... Corruption has been a part of world history forever and money is usually the reason behind it.  The bitshares platform and witness's will not be immune to it.  Granted BTS could be destroyed or completely centralized in one swoop right now, all that would have to happen is have the exchanges take their voting weight and elect their own witness's and committee members.  And this will probably happen if bitshares ever does start threatening the exchanges. 

78
Im not a witness but one day would want to run for a witness I just think one million bts is crazy I think this will make it for the new ppl that want to run not afford to be a witness and BitShares will probably get a bad wrap like dash and the masternodes it just feels like everyone who's a witness now can secure their spot

If a "bad wrap" grows bitshares market cap 10x what it is now, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
Im sure no one would but it was meant to say its not going to the point is you need 1000 dash to run a masternode thats over 10,000 so new investors cant run a node without putting up a lot of money so all the guys who paid a 1000 to get a masternode back when dash was a dollar have secured their spot making it very hard for new ppl to get in so how do you expect new comers with good ideas looking to be a whitness but cant because u need 1 millon bts thats a good way to attract new ppl

There are only 23 witness's right now, with another 33 in stand by.  If you don't have $4,000 to lock up as collateral for a blockchain that you are securing, I don't want you as a witness.  You could be too easily swayed (financially) to hurt the system.  Especially if you have nothing to lose by damaging it.

79
Im not a witness but one day would want to run for a witness I just think one million bts is crazy I think this will make it for the new ppl that want to run not afford to be a witness and BitShares will probably get a bad wrap like dash and the masternodes it just feels like everyone who's a witness now can secure their spot

If a "bad wrap" grows bitshares market cap 10x what it is now, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.

80

9.  Original investors start selling SCAM.UIA because there was no initial pop and barely any buy orders on the books.
10.  All of a sudden the trading book for SCAM.UIA is loaded with sells with hardly any buy orders.
11.  This leads to steady sell pressure on SCAM.UIA.  Many of these investors who are selling SCAM.UIA have no interest of being in the BTS ecosystem, holding BTS, or using the DEX.
12.  What are these uninterested investors who just received BTS for their SCAM.UIA going to do??? That's right! SELL THEIR NEWLY ACQUIRED BTS!
13.  What do they sell it for??? bitcoin, ethereum, or fiat.
14.  What does selling BTS for fiat do to the price of BTS?? Causes it to decline.
[member=23744]lil_jay890[/member] Thanks for the write up, having read it I think you have a point. I was critical because it seemed as if the ability in Bitshares to issue ICO tokens would always be negative for the BTS price. There is another side to it too though: If the UIA would be undervalued after the IPO, all after-IPO investors would need to buy BTS in order to buy the UIA which would be good for the BTS price.

Also there is the effect of a generally bearish or bullish BTS market. A bearish BTS market would make those that sold their ICO token for BTS, sell their BTS for Bitcoin like you said. If it's bullish though, holding BTS would be encouraged.

Overall I we can conclude:
(-) Creating downward pressure on BTS price: Overpriced ICO, General bearish BTS market.
(+) Creating upward pressure on BTS price: Underpriced ICO, General bullish BTS market.
(+ -) If there is one negative and one positive factor they cancel each other out.

If we could encourage trading in BTC or Open.BTC and leave BTS for fees, platform operations (issue account/ assets etc) and smart coin trading and issuance / collateral do you think the net result would be positive for the price of BTS.
I think that wouldn't help too much - as long as BTS (as opposed to open.btc) has the highest liquidity on external exchanges vs BTC -  since the ICO investor who wants to get back to BTC or fiat will sell BTS on external exchanges.

What would help is if ICOs would not have these ridiculous valuations which bring them close to being a scam. The only solution I see is to have ICOs that don't set valuations of their token market cap, but have a price discovery, there are two options I know of:
1) Either dividing all ICO tokens among all investors
2) Or the AGS model where 1/200th of the tokens sold are distributed among all investors who sent money on day 1 of 200 days. The same on day 2 and 3 etc...

So, there may actually be a conflict of interests since Openledger wants to maximize the token market cap/valuation of their customer's (Centz) ICO while it would be good for the BTS price to have the opposite.

So here's the rub... Have you ever seen an ICO undervalue itself?  I haven't.  Like you say most valuations are completely insane.

I agree that if BTS was in a bull market and UIA's were being issued undervalued, we would see general price appreciation in BTS.   Problem is 99% of ICO's are overvalued.  Until something is done to limit the UIA's creator ability to suck liquidity and value out of the system, the bearish circle will stay in place.  Hence every BTS price rise being sold.

81
It is exactly correct what btswolf said.


Very roughly: 1000 usd = 1 BTC = 1000 centz tokens.  And 1 centz token gives you 1 A share of the centz company --> Since there are 100 million A shares in total the centz company would be valued at 100 million USD - pre-product and without any users.

Everyone should judge these numbers by themselves but it is very rare for a seed investment valuation to exceed 10 million, see for example https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/19/what-reset-both-seed-and-late-stage-valuations-just-hit-record-levels-says-new-report/

b) dividends in the form of token drop from revenues of Centz operations
The pdf btswolf quoted states that the dividend is 10% of the revenue of the centz business until the equity is dropped onto centz token holders when the threshold is reached, yet all centz token holders hold 16% of the whole centz business....

It wouldn't be a Crypto ICO if it didn't value itself at some obscene 8-9 figure valuation...

Most of the ICO's done on the bitshares platform have done this as well, leading to the constant downward pressure on nearly every UIA.  Basically anyone who bought into any UIA has lost money in both BTS terms and Dollar terms.  This is a huge reason, among several others, that the BTS token gets sold off hard on every single pump to lower highs.
Why would that effect the BTS token?
btw, it's always hard to call a valley, but I think it's time to take of your BTS depression glasses;)

And put on the rose colored ones that have caused so many here to lose tons of cash?  Maybe when this dog stops getting sold on every pump I'll think about it.  Maybe when almost every single UIA doesn't look like a downward ski slope.

Reason why it pushes the BTS price down.  UIA's are distributed to all these people... many of who just want to sell on the first pump.  Because of this, the pump is small but they still want out.  The try to dump the tokens for bts, then try to dump the BTS of btc.  Because there is a lack of new blood in BTS, and because most of the supporters here have nothing left to invest, there is no buy liquidity.  It can be seen in nearly every order book.
Sorry, but your explanation lacks an independent first reason that is not the same reason BTS would go down without the UIA tokens as well.

Lets try this again...

1. A third party creates a UIA in the BTS Ecosystem.... Lets call it SCAM.UIA
2. Third party promotes SCAM.UIA, saying it the key to decentralized, deregulated, liberty for all, fortunes
3. In order to get in on this wonderful investment, you need to send DOLLLARS or BITCOIN to this third party
4. The third party then sends you a whole bunch of shiny new SCAM.UIA tokens

So lets review what has happened so far.  The scammer has created a token out of thin air and sold it to you for real currency or bitcoin.  You are hoping that he will take that money and create something wonderfully profitable and then distribute the money back to you via buy back or dividends.

Unfortunately....

5.  Once the SCAM.UIA tokens are distributed, all the investors are locked into the BTS ecosystem.
6.  All these investors have lots of initial "paper" wealth. But SCAM.UIA's trading book is extremely thin.
7.  Some of the original SCAM.UIA buyers wanted to sell on the first pop, but the books are too thin
8.  The books are too thin because there is not enough BTS holders, who were not involved in SCAM.UIA's ICO, willing to buy SCAM.UIA on the open market
9.  Original investors start selling SCAM.UIA because there was no initial pop and barely any buy orders on the books.
10.  All of a sudden the trading book for SCAM.UIA is loaded with sells with hardly any buy orders.
11.  This leads to steady sell pressure on SCAM.UIA.  Many of these investors who are selling SCAM.UIA have no interest of being in the BTS ecosystem, holding BTS, or using the DEX.
12.  What are these uninterested investors who just received BTS for their SCAM.UIA going to do??? That's right! SELL THEIR NEWLY ACQUIRED BTS!
13.  What do they sell it for??? bitcoin, ethereum, or fiat.
14.  What does selling BTS for fiat do to the price of BTS?? Causes it to decline.

These 14 steps have happened with the majority of the UIA's issued on the BTS platform.  Unless a UIA creator starts making a profit and buys back bts on the open market with his fiat profit, he has in essence taken energy out of the system.  The UIA creators, especially the big ones that raise a ton of money, put an incredible amount of stress on the tiny amount of traders who use the DEX.  If the UIA is going to stay profitable the DEX traders need to provide buy support.  Problem is there is not enough traders with excess capital to provide this support.     

82
It is exactly correct what btswolf said.


Very roughly: 1000 usd = 1 BTC = 1000 centz tokens.  And 1 centz token gives you 1 A share of the centz company --> Since there are 100 million A shares in total the centz company would be valued at 100 million USD - pre-product and without any users.

Everyone should judge these numbers by themselves but it is very rare for a seed investment valuation to exceed 10 million, see for example https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/19/what-reset-both-seed-and-late-stage-valuations-just-hit-record-levels-says-new-report/

b) dividends in the form of token drop from revenues of Centz operations
The pdf btswolf quoted states that the dividend is 10% of the revenue of the centz business until the equity is dropped onto centz token holders when the threshold is reached, yet all centz token holders hold 16% of the whole centz business....

It wouldn't be a Crypto ICO if it didn't value itself at some obscene 8-9 figure valuation...

Most of the ICO's done on the bitshares platform have done this as well, leading to the constant downward pressure on nearly every UIA.  Basically anyone who bought into any UIA has lost money in both BTS terms and Dollar terms.  This is a huge reason, among several others, that the BTS token gets sold off hard on every single pump to lower highs.
Why would that effect the BTS token?
btw, it's always hard to call a valley, but I think it's time to take of your BTS depression glasses;)

And put on the rose colored ones that have caused so many here to lose tons of cash?  Maybe when this dog stops getting sold on every pump I'll think about it.  Maybe when almost every single UIA doesn't look like a downward ski slope.

Reason why it pushes the BTS price down.  UIA's are distributed to all these people... many of who just want to sell on the first pump.  Because of this, the pump is small but they still want out.  The try to dump the tokens for bts, then try to dump the BTS of btc.  Because there is a lack of new blood in BTS, and because most of the supporters here have nothing left to invest, there is no buy liquidity.  It can be seen in nearly every order book.

83
General Discussion / Re: [ANN] BitGate Pre-Crowdfund ICO
« on: January 18, 2017, 10:02:43 pm »
So by my count... If you want 20btc for 5% of of the company, you are valuing yourself at about $360,000.

My guess is you are going to try tear your sales and probably try to value yourself between $500,000 and $1,000,000 by the final ICO or crowdfunding price.

Since pretty much every UIA in the bitshares ecosystem has over valued themselves and crushed early investors, why is yours going to be different?

Also, what is the deal with this "trader"?  Is he just going to use your exchange to trade?  Isn't your exchange just a wallet provider that trades on the BTS blockchain.  The BTS blockchain may have lots of filled orders, but that is deceptive.  Most of the orders are for minute amounts from the same bot trading back and forth from different accounts.  The liquidity is bone dry in most assets each day.  Unless he is going to act as a market maker of sorts, which I doubt he has the risk management resources much less the funding, I don't see how recruiting him to trade brings any value to your company.

Your real competition appears to be Openledger.  Are you going to do bigger buybacks or distribution than Openledger?  Openledger has several projects running and has been buying back tokens, yet the price of the tokens still keeps falling... Why follow that model when it seems to not work?  What projects do you expect to see a return from within 6 months after the crowdsale ends?

I've noticed the typical group of BTS peeps chasing this investment... Kind of like they chased every other investment offered by someone in the community.  So far nearly all those investments are well below their initial offerings.   Why invest in this one, which already has no first mover advantage?

84
It is exactly correct what btswolf said.


Very roughly: 1000 usd = 1 BTC = 1000 centz tokens.  And 1 centz token gives you 1 A share of the centz company --> Since there are 100 million A shares in total the centz company would be valued at 100 million USD - pre-product and without any users.

Everyone should judge these numbers by themselves but it is very rare for a seed investment valuation to exceed 10 million, see for example https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/19/what-reset-both-seed-and-late-stage-valuations-just-hit-record-levels-says-new-report/

b) dividends in the form of token drop from revenues of Centz operations
The pdf btswolf quoted states that the dividend is 10% of the revenue of the centz business until the equity is dropped onto centz token holders when the threshold is reached, yet all centz token holders hold 16% of the whole centz business....

It wouldn't be a Crypto ICO if it didn't value itself at some obscene 8-9 figure valuation...

Most of the ICO's done on the bitshares platform have done this as well, leading to the constant downward pressure on nearly every UIA.  Basically anyone who bought into any UIA has lost money in both BTS terms and Dollar terms.  This is a huge reason, among several others, that the BTS token gets sold off hard on every single pump to lower highs.

85
General Discussion / Re: Compuceeds and Compumatrix
« on: January 18, 2017, 12:09:08 am »
So can this safely be labeled a scam???

I hope MarsResident didn't blow his brains out... gotta think he was extremely over invested based on his constant pumping.  Unless he was part of the founders dumping...

Hugz!!

86
General Discussion / Re: more professional price feed?
« on: January 16, 2017, 06:03:50 pm »
Plus having BTS pay for a feed that all the witness's end up using kind of goes against the whole decentralization principles.

Who said anything about a single source paid or otherwise for ALL witnesses. It's NOT HELPFUL to jump to such conclusions. Let's stop this blame game and start figuring out the cause of the issue really lies and work together to resolve it.

I was saying that if a worker was put together to purchase a price feed, say from Bloomberg, that all the witness's would tend to use that price feed.  It would be the cheap and easy option for the witness's to do that.  Hence decreasing the decentralization of the system since most would use the provided feed.

And if the witness's decided not to use the worker provided feed, what is the point of having a worker provided feed?

87
Lets think about why the referral program is dead... Is it really because the fee's are low?  No, it's because no one can figure out how to build an actual business that utilizes the BTS platform.  All that the BTS platform is good for is to create a UIA that you can easily and anonymously scam investors with.... wow, I cant believe the price of BTS hasn't exploded!

"But wait... we are a decentralized exchange and that is our product and its really cool!"... News flash, when you buy bitUSD or bitGLD or bitBTC you don't own any real dollars, gold or bitcoin.  You own a derivative that is backed by an ultra low cap and low liquidity crypto currency.  A crypto that you have to send to an exchange and pay a bunch of fee's in order to get actual usable currency.  BTS is decentralized on the surface... but to get in and out, most people have to go through some centralized entity.  Plus you can make the claim that proxies have way too much power and thus add additional centralization to the system.  If the exchanges got together, they could easily control all of BTS.  I feel most people here know that, but choose to sweep that massive bts design flaw under the rug.

Basically bts seems cool and useful on the outside but when you look deeper at it, you realize its just a complicated, low liquidity, faux-decentralized, scammers dream platform.  Having a well designed and robust referral system wont garner new users, when bts doesn't excel at filling any niche role.  It does a bunch of things in complicated clunky ways.

88
General Discussion / Re: Bitshares price discussion
« on: January 11, 2017, 08:56:44 pm »
What a blood bath today.  Who wants to call the bottom?

Doesn't it feel great to experience all the bitcoin sell offs but none of the rallies?

5 million market cap here we come!  Maybe buy a little bit there and sell on the pop to lower highs before this dog really sells off.

89
General Discussion / Re: Bots
« on: January 08, 2017, 02:21:54 pm »

I was making this point about us needing more bot support in Bitshares if we want to see more liquidity yesterday in telegram.

I actually think this is something that should have priority over the GUI.

Bots bring liquidity

liquidity brings real users

users demand GUI

deliver better GUI

Great plan! We already have something to start:

https://btsbots.com

Trading bots with nice web GUI are waiting for you.

Liquidity or not. When you drive the price down to the bottom then the asset becomes worthless and no one wants it!

That's what these bots are doing to assets!

You bot owners  just want to make money off the assets and don't care about the other asset holders!

So don't tell me this is a good thing. I aint buying it! Now they have cost me dearly.

Thanks a lot!

The assets are declining not because of bots, they are declining because people are leaving the bitshares ecosystem and there are not enough new people to replace them.

Most of these assets distributed a ton of coins at extremely inflated valuations to not very many people.  Solcerts, muse, moonstone, compuceeds and others sucked in a good amount of investor cash. These investors believed the sales pitches by the coins creators. 

It would take a massive influx of new bts users  to support any liquid trading of these coins.  Markets go where there is liquidity. The liquid value of these tokens is much less than what the founders and pumpers pitched to the investors. They ico'd the coins at what they thought the value of the company would be in the future... They left out all the risk and growing pains that it would take to get there. Now the free market is discounting the shares based on those risks.

This is the problem with non regulated asset distribution.  Most of the investors are ignorant sheep who buy in to a sales pitch. At least with regulation, these shit companies wouldn't be able to come public. With the dex they can and it's easier than ever to scam someone and have them cut there losses and leave bts forever.

90
General Discussion / Re: more professional price feed?
« on: January 06, 2017, 06:15:35 pm »
I think what bitcrab is getting at is that witness's should provide a quality robust price feed.  They are being paid by the blockchain to produce blocks and provide a reliable feed. Providing this reliable feed is well within the scope and responsibility of the witness and shouldn't be subsidized by a worker proposal.

That said, I know feeds for assets can be expensive.  Right now, a witness would run at a net loss if they were to subscribe to a professional price feed like Bloomberg.

The witness's that can find a balance between robustness and cost effectiveness of the price feeds are going to be the ones that get and stay elected.

Witnesses are NOT paid to produce feeds... it is an ongoing expense to witnesses. Some do not publish as often as others as a result.

If you want to have 'reliable feeds' then what I am saying is relying on free sources is by no means reliable. Those that are using a few other sources are by no means providing real 'robustness' to the network. It is paper thin now even with others publishing. So we have a choice to make. We continue to treat bitassets like a hobby, or get them to a level that is robust and reliable.

I am proposing a fix instead of a bandaide in my estimation.

In the interim I am going to stop publishing CNY as suggested and following suit with other witnesses until there are enough reliable markets available to support it.

Personally I have expected that if a witness wants to get voted in, providing price feeds is part of the deal.  The better the price feed the more satisfied I am with the witness I'm voting for.  If a witness is going to knowingly provide bad data, then all the more reason to vote them out in favor of one who will take the job more seriously.  I get that problems can occur, but this has been brought to the at fault witness's in the past and in most cases there has been little to no response.

There may not be any requirement that witness's provide price feeds, but the shareholders should and most likely will vote in witness's who provide the most value... It's capitalism and competion. And it's a better solution than having BTS pay for it.  There are already witness's out there doing a good job with the price feeds.

Plus having BTS pay for a feed that all the witness's end up using kind of goes against the whole decentralization principles.

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