Author Topic: Lets vote for lower fees!  (Read 7399 times)

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Offline pal

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Lets vote for lower fees!
« on: October 16, 2015, 09:29:47 pm »
Price of BTS falling after lunch and this seems strange. System that developers put up is really good. We should see 10x increase, but we see decay, again!

There are two reasons for this:
1. High fees.
2. Centralization.

We could solve this. We could be wrong in our calculations about marketing, but we have the ability to change things. Why don't we try?

No other blockchain could not govern itself in such an efficient manner as Bitshares and we could prove it!

I don't want to see BTS for 0.0000150 again. I don't want to pay high fees and hear others complain. And I don't want to hear that Bitshares centralized. If you agree - just vote for pal as committee and we will change things, together.

My proposal:
Let's reduce all fees by the factor of 4.
Our system very good, we should be able to grow by 4x in short time if there will be no such resistance as high fees for people to use Bitshares.
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Offline Ander

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2015, 09:32:36 pm »
I disagree with reducing fees for two main reasons:

1) It makes the referral program a lot less interesting if you dont expect the users you bring in to generate much of any fees.  So then it will fail.

2) A big reason why the BTS price has been trending down for a year is that the supply is increasing, that is, the blockchain is operating at a loss instead of being profitable.  As soon as we can demonstrate a blockchain making a profit over a reasonable period of time, even a small profit, it will attract a lot of attention.  Everyone is used to inflating blockchains that hemmorhage money (through PoW or whatever), but if you change that around and are actually making a profit, then a lot of investors will want to jump on board.  And helping the price break its downtrend is going to help adopting a LOT, because a major inhibitor to adoption right now is that everyone who buys in loses money and gets disillusioned.



Enough fees to turn a profit is the savior of BTS.

The fees for subscribers being 2 cents instead of .5 cent is not going to significantly impact our adoption.

The reason the price dropped is beacuse a bunch of peopel who had bought BTS prior to release but dont actually care about it long term all dumped it.  That had nothing at all to do with what the fee is.


I strongly encourage everyone to vote against lowering the fee.

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Offline roadscape

Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2015, 09:44:05 pm »
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19134.msg246078.html#msg246078

Look at it this way:

1.  User issued assets can set any core-exchange-rate they like and lower the fees for users of the UIA to close to 0
2.  UIAs can charge market fees similar to exchanges
3.  $0.10 for a normal user or $0.02 cents for a lifetime member are so close to $0 that few would even think about it for a transaction over $10
4.  BTS is not meant to be payment currency.  How many people buy less than $10 worth of stock in a company?  What is the transaction fee on that?

In other words, the ability of users to do "price discrimination" falls apart at values this low.   Unless you are executing 1000's of transactions there is almost no perceivable difference.  Most people won't even bend over to pick up a DIME on the ground.

In other words from a customer perspective  $0.01 and $0.10 are effectively the SAME in low volumes.   At high volumes the price approaches $0.02 for lifetime members which is cheaper than Bitcoin. 

While the difference in price is insignificant to individual users, it is HUGE for the network.   The network is a party to every transaction and thus sees a 5x increase in revenue while the user perceives almost no difference in cost.
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Offline Akado

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2015, 09:46:05 pm »
I think it's still to early for that and imo it's doesn't make any sense on blaming the fees. Do you think Bitshares is getting dumped because of the fees? Most people don't even know how much fees they pay. They simply look to make a profit and follow the money. The whole cryptoscene is in a bear market right now. It's not reasonable to blame fees for the decrease in price. Also, add what I mentioned to the fact that it's easy for someone to manipulate a market and there you go.

BitShares 2.0 just launched, price went from 1800 or less satoshis to 3000 for a short while, people sold the news. This is pretty much in a proof of concept atm. We don't have 100 partners wit 1000 of users each running on top of BitShares. We just launched. Expecting a 10x increase in price in this market is not reasonable and whoever stresses about the price not going through the roof atm only seems to be they want to dump.

Everything will happen in due time. We just started, first we need to prove 2.0 is running with no problems, the peg works and the referral system needs to start attracting more people. Only then can we expect a realistic increase in value.

First we attrack some because we're faster, safer, better and because we have a peg working. Then the referral system will do it's job. Meanwhile we will have a few worker proposals for new features. Things take time. We have everything set in place for things to work out, we only need patience.

You can't expect a day after a new software is launched to attract thousands of users. Maybe in the past when the market wasn't in this situation. But thing will happen in due time. Patience is key here. We've been through 1 bad year. Whoever handled this last year can probably wait for better results. it can only get better from my point of view.

We just defined our path and built the road (a good one), now we only need to start and go towards our objective at it's end.
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Offline pal

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2015, 09:48:09 pm »
I disagree with reducing fees for two main reasons:

1) It makes the referral program a lot less interesting if you dont expect the users you bring in to generate much of any fees.  So then it will fail.

2) A big reason why the BTS price has been trending down for a year is that the supply is increasing, that is, the blockchain is operating at a loss instead of being profitable.  As soon as we can demonstrate a blockchain making a profit over a reasonable period of time, even a small profit, it will attract a lot of attention.  Everyone is used to inflating blockchains that hemmorhage money (through PoW or whatever), but if you change that around and are actually making a profit, then a lot of investors will want to jump on board.  And helping the price break its downtrend is going to help adopting a LOT, because a major inhibitor to adoption right now is that everyone who buys in loses money and gets disillusioned.

...

1. Low fees are easy sell, we could subscribe more people. Any working referral program will be good incentive for people.
2. We made mistakes in the past, lowering we fees will not be worse than other decisions. But system will become actually usable by people, not investors.
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Offline Stan

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2015, 09:49:57 pm »
BitShares has just set course to escape from the tyranny of speculators.  They hop from pump to pump and do not make decisions based on the long term value proposition, only the near term trend.

But now the BitShares has a way to bring in new blood and teach new users through the referral program, there will be steady upward pressure on the price.  Let's concentrate on ways to help new people from outside the speculator community learn to gain max value from using the system.  That kind of buy pressure is the sustainable kind!

Everybody can be an entrepreneur in this area and grow their income as they get good at it!

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 09:50:49 pm »
There are two reasons for this:
1. High fees.
2. Centralization.

Doesn't make sense. These are not the reasons the BTS price is low.

The priority is to finish the GUI and implement all the missing features on the GUI level.
The unfinished UI is the main barrier for new users and also the reason we have low volumes on the internal exchange.
When new users arrive the price will recover and when traders start trading there will be profits from transaction fees and an additional reason for the price to rise.

So at this moment it all boils down to having the UI truly ready.

Offline pal

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 09:55:43 pm »
Guys, I think there is demand from people for lower fees, so I created this to see if it is so.

Demand will be not from people who leave in USA or Europe, but from Chinese and other developing countries.

For USA ten cents is nothing, for others it is barrier.
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Offline Ander

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 09:58:16 pm »

1. Low fees are easy sell, we could subscribe more people. Any working referral program will be good incentive for people.
2. We made mistakes in the past, lowering we fees will not be worse than other decisions. But system will become actually usable by people, not investors.

We had low fees in the past and that didnt help us sell anything.  On the contrary, the blockchain losing money caused most of the community to abandon it, driving the market cap from 100M to 8M. 

We need to MAKE MONEY.  This is what will make bitshares take off. 

When btc had its huge rallies in the past, they drove adoption.  We need bitshares price rises to drive adoption, and for that we need the blockchain to be profitable and thus attractive to investors, and for that we need reasonably costed fees around their current level that are still lower than what you pay for any financial transfer, but high enough to make some money.
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Offline pal

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2015, 09:58:49 pm »

Doesn't make sense. These are not the reasons the BTS price is low.

The priority is to finish the GUI and implement all the missing features on the GUI level.
The unfinished UI is the main barrier for new users and also the reason we have low volumes on the internal exchange.
When new users arrive the price will recover and when traders start trading there will be profits from transaction fees and an additional reason for the price to rise.

So at this moment it all boils down to having the UI truly ready.

UI is good enough to make transactions and even trade, but now it's too costly
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Offline Ander

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2015, 10:00:37 pm »

Doesn't make sense. These are not the reasons the BTS price is low.

The priority is to finish the GUI and implement all the missing features on the GUI level.
The unfinished UI is the main barrier for new users and also the reason we have low volumes on the internal exchange.
When new users arrive the price will recover and when traders start trading there will be profits from transaction fees and an additional reason for the price to rise.

So at this moment it all boils down to having the UI truly ready.

UI is good enough to make transactions and even trade, but now it's too costly


Have you compared the price against the price of trading at an exchange?  For most of them its 0.2% of the amount you trade. 

If you trade more than .2 btc worth of something, youll be paying more trading on an exchange than in bitshares. 

If you are a member of bitshares, then you pay 80% less, so if you trade more than .04 btc worth at a time you pay less than on an exchange.
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Offline pal

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2015, 10:14:36 pm »
I see your logic. I'm surprised that so many people understand that system should make money. It's good, I'm glad to be part of this. But I search for people with different view and if there is enough of them - we should make a change.  This people could be quietly selling right now and don't know that they can influence system despite all authority.
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Offline speedy

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RAISE fees on BTS transfers!
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2015, 10:19:57 pm »
It would be better to raise fees on BTS transfers to allow the network to benefit from all those transfers to/from poloniex.

Lets face it all transfers at this point are just to/from an exchange by people who either want out of BitShares altogether or are transferring to their own wallet for the long term. Its not facilitating any real merchant activity at the moment. Either way they wont mind paying a fee of around 50 BTS.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 10:23:39 pm by speedy »

Offline noisy

Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2015, 10:26:14 pm »
I agree with pal. In my opinion 10 cents is very high fee. I am from Poland, and for me 10 cents mean probably much more than you might think. Previously I thought about making a giveaway thread for Polish community, but with fee's so high... this doesn't make sense.

I don't agree that this is a reason why price of bitshares dropped, but eventually I think high fees will make this continue. Right now bitshares network makes a profit. And you know what? THIS IS NOT TIME FOR A PROFIT! At the beginning of each company there is an investment process. First.. .the owner need to put some money (or time) on the table, to buy/produce some product... the profit sometime is not yet there.

Could you told me, when Facebook and Twitter started making profit? Not in the early stages... and right now bitshares is in the early stage!

We as a community are investors in bitshares. If we are truly long term investors... quick profit should not be so important to us. Right now we should focus, to provide the best experience for customers. Just like that. Fees needs to me low, very low!

Quote
Have you compared the price against the price of trading at an exchange?  For most of them its 0.2% of the amount you trade. 

If you trade more than .2 btc worth of something, youll be paying more trading on an exchange than in bitshares. 

If you are a member of bitshares, then you pay 80% less, so if you trade more than .04 btc worth at a time you pay less than on an exchange.

This is not true.. because you are not taking into consideration, that right now there is no liquidity in bitassets exchanges. The true cost of operation " Buy 1 bitUSD and immediately sell 1 bitUSD" is far beyond acceptance.

We should vote for lower fees!
Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline noisy

Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2015, 10:32:58 pm »
I never thought I would use arguments like that... but you all probably see "The Social Network" Movie. Do you remember the scene with Sean Parker?

"Hey, you know what? Settle an argument for us. I say it's time to start making money from The Facebook.. "

Take a look: https://youtu.be/dU6scly2AFU?t=1m17s

Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline pal

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Re: RAISE fees on BTS transfers!
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2015, 10:38:39 pm »
It would be better to raise fees on BTS transfers to allow the network to benefit from all those transfers to/from poloniex.

Lets face it all transfers at this point are just to/from an exchange by people who either want out of BitShares altogether or are transferring to their own wallet for the long term. Its not facilitating any real merchant activity at the moment. Either way they wont mind paying a fee of around 50 BTS.
Fees getting higher with growth of the system, so lowering the fees will be temporary. Eventually BTS will be profitable, but right now there is not enough users to get this profit from.
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Offline MarketingMonk

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2015, 10:48:59 pm »
Price is never really the issue. The real issue in marketing is the perception of value.

That comes from correctly educating the prospective users.

I vote to keep fees the same and focus on the product.

This idea that every business starts off losing money is a limiting belief.

It is a self fulfilling prophesy.

As an online entrepreneur I'm always asking this question when launching a new business:

"How can we be profitable from day 1?"

How differently do you think things pan out with that mindset?

As opposed to:

"We are going to lose money for the first year anyway so we need to think how are we going to survive?"

And the example of Twitter and Facebook relates to BitShares only in as much as the focus at the beginning was getting as many people using the system as possible.

That's where the similarities end.

The problem for Twitter and Facebook in the early years was the lack of a business model and hence no idea how they were going to generate revenue.

We already have a business model and a revenue stream with BitShares so the real question becomes:

"How do we attract more users to what we've got?"

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: RAISE fees on BTS transfers!
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2015, 10:53:41 pm »
It would be better to raise fees on BTS transfers to allow the network to benefit from all those transfers to/from poloniex.

Lets face it all transfers at this point are just to/from an exchange by people who either want out of BitShares altogether or are transferring to their own wallet for the long term. Its not facilitating any real merchant activity at the moment. Either way they wont mind paying a fee of around 50 BTS.
Fees getting higher with growth of the system, so lowering the fees will be temporary. Eventually BTS will be profitable, but right now there is not enough users to get this profit from.

What size transactions do you think the average Polish/Chinese person will be making?

I'm in favour of the current fees but don't mind decreasing them for lower value transactions..

With a flat fee system people at the lower end are possibly paying an unfair amount.

(It doesn't make sense if US users are on average sending $500 for $0.10 and our say African users are sending an average of $4 and paying $0.10 per transaction too. We could potentially get better value from both markets with a sliding scale.)

What about 0.1% fee with a minimum fee of $0.01 and a maximum of say $0.10

That way if you send/receive <$10 you only pay $0.01. $25 is $0.025 etc..

 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:02:20 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline pal

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2015, 10:59:24 pm »
@MarketingMonk

You try to attract new users from countries there already good financial system (USA, Western Europe), while we could provide free banking for the world. Current fees isolate system in one region. This cutting off China, Eastern Europe, Russia, Greece, Argentina, Africa and others.
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Offline noisy

Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2015, 11:02:31 pm »
Quote
"How can we be profitable from day 1?"

That is good approach, but somehow bitcoin do not earn money... and most of people don't care about that. Why? Because they believe in the massive adoption of bitcoin in the future, and then all people will earn money every day, just by not spending so huge transaction fees to the banks.

Quote
"How can we be profitable from day 1?"

One more time... this is good approach if you want to create a company which will sell ice creams on the street. But if you want to lunch a rocket and land on the mars... you just cannot think about the profit in the short term. INNOVATION NEED INVESTMENTS - simple as that.

Quote
"How do we attract more users to what we've got?"

And this is another misunderstanding. 99% of people are consumers... so we should allow them consume cheap. I don't understand an idea, that suddenly we want to only attract people which want to be a "referral entrepreneur" at the expense of average user.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:05:06 pm by noisy »
Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline pal

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2015, 11:06:52 pm »

What about 0.1% fee with a minimum fee of $0.01 and a maximum of say $0.10

That way if you send/receive <$10 you only pay $0.01. $25 is $0.025 etc..
What would be great! Is it easily doable? What we need for this? Let's start casting votes!  :)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:08:42 pm by pal »
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Offline noisy

Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2015, 11:09:06 pm »
Quote
What about 0.1% fee with a minimum fee of $0.01 and a maximum of say $0.10

That way if you send/receive <$10 you only pay $0.01. $25 is $0.025 etc..

I think, that would be fair.
Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2015, 11:11:53 pm »

What about 0.1% fee with a minimum fee of $0.01 and a maximum of say $0.10

That way if you send/receive <$10 you only pay $0.01. $25 is $0.025 etc..
What would be great! Is it easily doable? What we need for this? Let's start casting votes!  :)

I don't know if it's easily doable. We would have to ask Bytemaster and also see what are the negatives.
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Offline bobmaloney

Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2015, 11:14:29 pm »

What about 0.1% fee with a minimum fee of $0.01 and a maximum of say $0.10

That way if you send/receive <$10 you only pay $0.01. $25 is $0.025 etc..
What would be great! Is it easily doable? What we need for this? Let's start casting votes!  :)

I don't know if it's easily doable. We would have to ask Bytemaster and also see what are the negatives.

A switch to a percentage-based fee system would require a hard fork (according to bytemaster in this mornings mumble session)
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Offline noisy

Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2015, 11:22:21 pm »
Suddenly I understood the power of no truly requirenment of fee in bitcoin. As far as I know, you do not have to pay a large fee, but you have to remember, that this will mean, that miners will authorize more profitable transactions first. If I want to have a proper speed, I need to pay more - fair enough.

This also mean, that miners are greedy, what is good in that case, because in that case miners are just workers of the network, and they should work as hard as they can, to process all data.

I think the best idea should be to:
- lower the cost of the network. If you want to make a profit, maybe we should not spend so much at the first place? Are miners really need to earn so much? As far as I know, they earn much more that then need to cover the expenses.
- fees should be dynamic. If the there is a lot of transactions in the network, then fee should be higher. If processing is cheap because there is not much transactions to process, fees should be very low.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:33:35 pm by noisy »
Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline donkeypong

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2015, 11:57:17 pm »
Keep it and let's see this baby grow.

Offline noisy

Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2015, 12:10:28 am »
Quote
Keep it and let's see this baby grow.

You are kidding me!? You prefer to step back rather than fix the issue? People really complains about that:



This kind of fees really makes bitshares useless for all people in my country. This could be the reason why I could stop using bitshares.
Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2015, 02:12:51 am »
I'd much rather vote for lower dilution and background sell-pressure.

Offline xiahui135

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2015, 02:20:11 am »
we should lower the transacion , place/cancel order fee.

Lower the transaction fee, fee for place/cancel orders. This makes strong and deep order book. I have plenty of experience trade in nxt DEX. Because the market is not deep and my order may not make a deal, I feel lost something to place an order. So I am willing to pay tens times of fee to trade on centered exchange.

We should increase the fee when trade success.
Increase trade fee rate to 0.05%(more or less). So a average 20000 bts order will create 20 bts profit.
Why? Because of a simple research result: both side of a trade feel themself is winner, when they trade totally freely. In this situation, people are willing to pay more.
(I have many experice in this, that i am willing to pay hundreds of bts to central exchanges as fee, when i feel making a good deal. Even 0.5% fee rate is not high for me in this case)

Offline xeroc

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2015, 02:25:39 am »
It seems there are way more people in this community that solve multi-dimensional optimization problems than I thought .. :-P
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Offline luckybit

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2015, 04:35:39 am »
@MarketingMonk

You try to attract new users from countries there already good financial system (USA, Western Europe), while we could provide free banking for the world. Current fees isolate system in one region. This cutting off China, Eastern Europe, Russia, Greece, Argentina, Africa and others.

Doesn't it make more sense to try to attract whales then people who can't even afford to use Bitshares? Attract the whales early on and let Bitcoin focus on keeping itself cheap so people in the developing world can use it as a currency.

Bitshares always seemed to be marketed to people who have money or who are in the developed world. Bitshares was always about crowdfunding, stocks, bonds, etc.

If you are a high net worth individual I doubt you care about the fees. You probably worry more about the taxes than the fees and the fact that Bitshares 2.0 is a lot lower tax, is what makes up for the fees. When you spend Bitcoin you have to pay capital gains and other weird taxes with every transaction. With Bitshares you would at most only have to pay the tax on the underlying BTS price.

But with BitUSD and other instruments you could have the taxes more easier managed than with Bitcoin. Bitcoin goes to $1000? You pay capital gains when you spend your Bitcoins. BTS goes to $1? You spend BitUSD and you pay capital gains, but if you cash out you pay income taxes.






« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 04:39:05 am by luckybit »
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Offline fav

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2015, 06:54:29 am »
20 BTS / 4 bts are fine and helping us grow.

I'm not supporting this.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2015, 07:02:56 am »
we could provide free banking for the world. 

This is not a free project. We are still paying for the development and maintenance of BitShares. A lot of people have put a good deal of hard work and money into developing this. We all have hopes that it can be widely used to make peoples' lives better in the developing world. But we can't suddenly hand it out for free any more than a company that's developed an HIV vaccine can ignore all the costs it has spent developing the medicine. Now it may not be as cheap as you'd like, but I don't think BitShares is gouging anybody either. In time, as with any new product that needs to develop scale, the costs should come down naturally.

Offline BTSdac

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2015, 01:03:37 pm »
I disagree with reducing fees for two main reasons:

1) It makes the referral program a lot less interesting if you dont expect the users you bring in to generate much of any fees.  So then it will fail.

2) A big reason why the BTS price has been trending down for a year is that the supply is increasing, that is, the blockchain is operating at a loss instead of being profitable.  As soon as we can demonstrate a blockchain making a profit over a reasonable period of time, even a small profit, it will attract a lot of attention.  Everyone is used to inflating blockchains that hemmorhage money (through PoW or whatever), but if you change that around and are actually making a profit, then a lot of investors will want to jump on board.  And helping the price break its downtrend is going to help adopting a LOT, because a major inhibitor to adoption right now is that everyone who buys in loses money and gets disillusioned.



Enough fees to turn a profit is the savior of BTS.

The fees for subscribers being 2 cents instead of .5 cent is not going to significantly impact our adoption.

The reason the price dropped is beacuse a bunch of peopel who had bought BTS prior to release but dont actually care about it long term all dumped it.  That had nothing at all to do with what the fee is.


I strongly encourage everyone to vote against lowering the fee.
Disagree with you
1. I do not oppose referral program, but there is no conflict between referral program and low transfer fee,  I don`t understand why transfer is higher than exchange fee , 
also there are different fee ( transfer fee, exchange ), is it reasonable , why transfer is 20BTS but exchang fee is any 5bts.  and I think transfer should been lower than exchange fee
about fee I have some thinking
transfer fee : transfer is an equal in value  of input and output ,  it is also a basic service supply by bts network ,  so it should pay the lowest fee
exchange fee : exchange is not an equal in value of input and output ,  people exchange would lost/get profit. in other words ,the purpose of exchange is to get profit, so most of them ignore the fee, because they can get hundreds of times profit than fee ,if they buy/sell at right price .   in other , exchange is a higher service than transfer, I think,  so the fee is higher than transfer fee is reasonable
borrow/close  fee :  because it is leverage trading, people would lost/get more profit , so the fee should higher than exchange fee
so I think the fee should   transfer fee <exchange fee<borrow/close  fee

bond exchange would charge higher fee , it can support referral program.
2. the big reason why price has been trending down for a year is not the supply increasing , people can accept supply increasing but cannot accept supply increasing unreasonably , eg, Max supply change , the biggest harm is Max supply from 2B to 3.7B, it is old thing  but now we restart now.
the reason of  price trending is not the sell of increased bts , it is influence of supply increasing . also the bad thing is not higher fee , it is influence of high fee .
 I believe bts is a system that can get profit in furniture, I don`t think bts make profit now is a good thing,  a  successful business cannot get profit when it most but have profit perspective.
if bts charge high fee ,it would block people join bts.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 01:07:03 pm by BTSdac »
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Offline alt

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2015, 01:53:28 pm »
low fee for transfer and trading, others can higher, especially the register fee

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2015, 01:58:57 pm »
low fee for transfer and trading, others can higher, especially the register fee
I also think the trade fee need to divide into 2 part.
Palce and cancel order need to be very very cheap, and trade success need to be charge a higher fee (such as 0.05%, still lower than the centered exchanges).

This can get more fee than now.

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2015, 02:12:27 pm »
Market Orders are 0.1 BTS
Canceling Orders is 0.1 BTS
Transfer 0.1 BTS

i think  this is reasonable

Offline Akado

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2015, 02:15:37 pm »
Market Orders are 0.1 BTS
Canceling Orders is 0.1 BTS
Transfer 0.1 BTS

i think  this is reasonable

lol 0.1? You there are two and a half billion coins. We definetely need to reduce fees on placing orders, but that's ridicously low. You think the fees will make you poor or what? Make it between 1 and 5 BTS
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Offline freedom

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2015, 02:17:40 pm »
Market Orders are 0.1 BTS
Canceling Orders is 0.1 BTS
Transfer 0.1 BTS

i think  this is reasonable
+5%
20 BTS is too high.I don't want to use the system, it's too expensive.

Offline Akado

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2015, 02:21:24 pm »
Market Orders are 0.1 BTS
Canceling Orders is 0.1 BTS
Transfer 0.1 BTS

i think  this is reasonable
+5%
20 BTS is too high.I don't want to use the system, it's too expensive.

But it definitely doesn't need to be 0.1 might as well make it for free lol
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Offline alt

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2015, 02:25:57 pm »
Market Orders are 0.1 BTS
Canceling Orders is 0.1 BTS
Transfer 0.1 BTS

i think  this is reasonable

lol 0.1? You there are two and a half billion coins. We definetely need to reduce fees on placing orders, but that's ridicously low. You think the fees will make you poor or what? Make it between 1 and 5 BTS
yes, I chose 1 BTS.

Offline Moon

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2015, 02:26:21 pm »
OK,

now 1 bts ? bm  will not be happy

Offline BTSdac

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2015, 02:48:18 pm »
low fee for transfer and trading, others can higher, especially the register fee
low fee for transfer and trading, others can higher, especially the register fee
high trading fee increase cost of market maker,
but market maker can become life time member to reduce fee by 80%
and register is a basic service for user , so also should been low fee
bond fee can high ,because boud participant is highrisk participant, they can get/lose more , so they do net care fee!
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Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2015, 02:48:40 pm »
1 BTS is too cheap. $0.004. Even 1 000 000 users doing 1 transfer a day would be $120 000 monthly and only $24 000 for BTS.
 
However a flat fee system is incorrect imo especially while the BTS network has the capacity for more transactions.

A system with X capacity is a bit like a hotel I guess. You want to get the most money for your bedrooms at peak times but you also don't want empty beds if you're already paying for the running cost of the hotel anyway. 

So I still think something like 0.1% with a minimum of $0.01 and maximum of $0.1/$0.2 would be better.

1 million users doing a transaction a day at $0.05 on average is $1.5 million a month, and $250 000 for BTS, so it's certainly worth targetting the low transaction size (but not micro-transaction) market that we might miss out on. While still getting the $0.1 to $0.2 fee from the higher size transaction market.
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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2015, 04:16:35 pm »
I would disagree to lower the fees at this point. The referral program has not even started, and it requires a substantial portion of the fees to make a meaningful contribution to actually work.

The fee right of this moment is 8 us cents, and a lifetime membership upgrade is 41 USD, which lowers the fee to 1.6 cents, which is very reasonable.

Each transaction brings 6.4 cents to the referral market
1.6 cents are being burned OR are put into the worker fund (when the fund is not full)

That means each transaction FUNDS our software developers so they can continue to enhance our platform and make things better and easier to use.


Decentralized marketeers are waiting for the referral program to launch, it has not even started, so why would you want to kill the referral market before it has even launched?? 6.4 cent for each transaction is a PRETTY GOOD DAMN argument to bring in new users. That's alot of money right here on the table.

However, I would suggest to lower the fees for smaller transactions. It does not make sense to charge 20BTS for a 100BTS fee, a small %-fee would be more suitable here.

Let's put this fee into comparison of what I'm paying to my banks here in Germany:

I'm paying 5 Euros per month flat for my personal bank account, and doing maybe 25 transactions a month, this equals a 0.20 euro/tx fee.

I'm paying 20 euros flat for my corporate bank account, plus 5 cents per transactions and I'm doing roughly 30 transactions here per month. This equals 0.73 Euro/tx fee.

Now compare this to the BTS fees. We're not trying to compete with Bitcoin (which has 3-4 cents fees!) or any other cryptocurrency but we're trying to compete with creditcards, bank accounts, stock portfolio accounts etc. I think we're VERY competitive when you compare us to dwolla, paypal and any other bank. This is what counts!



My 2BTS.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 04:24:43 pm by mindphlux »
Please consider voting for my witness mindphlux.witness and my committee user mindphlux. I will not vote for changes that affect witness pay.

Offline spartako

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2015, 04:29:20 pm »
I would disagree to lower the fees at this point. The referral program has not even started, and it requires a substantial portion of the fees to make a meaningful contribution to actually work.

The fee right of this moment is 8 us cents, and a lifetime membership upgrade is 41 USD, which lowers the fee to 1.6 cents, which is very reasonable.

Each transaction brings 6.4 cents to the referral market
1.6 cents are being burned OR are put into the worker fund (when the fund is not full)

That means each transaction FUNDS our software developers so they can continue to enhance our platform and make things better and easier to use.


Decentralized marketeers are waiting for the referral program to launch, it has not even started, so why would you want to kill the referral market before it has even launched?? 6.4 cent for each transaction is a PRETTY GOOD DAMN argument to bring in new users. That's alot of money right here on the table.

However, I would suggest to lower the fees for smaller transactions. It does not make sense to charge 20BTS for a 100BTS fee, a small %-fee would be more suitable here.

Let's put this fee into comparison of what I'm paying to my banks here in Germany:

I'm paying 5 Euros per month flat for my personal bank account, and doing maybe 25 transactions a month, this equals a 0.20 euro/tx fee.

I'm paying 20 euros flat for my corporate bank account, plus 5 cents per transactions and I'm doing roughly 30 transactions here per month. This equals 0.73 Euro/tx fee.

Now compare this to the BTS fees. We're not trying to compete with Bitcoin (which has 3-4 cents fees!) or any other cryptocurrency but we're trying to compete with creditcards, bank accounts, stock portfolio accounts etc. I think we're VERY competitive when you compare us to dwolla, paypal and any other bank. This is what counts!



My 2BTS.

 +5%
We can set 5BTS for "small" transaction and I'm ok with the current system
wallet_account_set_approval spartako

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2015, 12:40:21 am »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2015, 10:06:42 am »
 +5%
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.
PTS:PdgL56dBh5fhL3qfk8BMEYEpUQcqGDHKhj
BTSX:bitcoiner

Offline ElMato

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2015, 10:19:10 am »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.
+5%

Here in Argentina:
* Free bank accounts (no CC, just saving)
* No transfer fees (below 30K ARS)
* Instant transfers

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2015, 10:33:35 am »
I think we should keep the fees as they are.

It's not fair to compare our fees to bitcoin and other crypto - we offer a price stable crypto-currency free of counterparty risk. This is absolutely unique in the crypto world and as long as we are not forced to lower the fees by competition offering a comparable product, we should take advantage of this situation and keep the prices as they are. If you want to compare our prices with other crypto do it thoroughly: include all conversion costs and the counterparty risk.

In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
This is not fair, either. You perceive it as free but actually you pay for it but the cost is hidden in other products' prices (or you pay for it by being exposed to advertising but the end result is the same, the customer eventually pays for it).
Transferring money has its cost and there is no such thing as free service in this business.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 10:38:32 am by jakub »

Offline Moon

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2015, 10:37:09 am »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.
+5%

Here in Argentina:
* Free bank accounts (no CC, just saving)
* No transfer fees (below 30K ARS)
* Instant transfers


I agree

jakub

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2015, 10:43:45 am »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.
+5%

Here in Argentina:
* Free bank accounts (no CC, just saving)
* No transfer fees (below 30K ARS)
* Instant transfers


I agree

You agree to what? That money can be transferred for free?
This is not true. You pay for it but refuse to realize it.

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2015, 12:11:23 pm »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.
+5%

Here in Argentina:
* Free bank accounts (no CC, just saving)
* No transfer fees (below 30K ARS)
* Instant transfers


I agree

You agree to what? That money can be transferred for free?
This is not true. You pay for it but refuse to realize it.

Jakub why do you think BTC is going up right now? A lot of people are pointing to increased capital controls in China.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-16/capital-controls-blowback-bitcoin-surges-back-pre-china-currency-wars-levels

Do you know Argentina is one of if not the most lucrative BitAsset markets because of capital controls and  USD demand?

These countries are the BitAsset target markets.

If they say the fees are too high we need to listen.

I understand that we can't target the micro-transaction market, or please everyone and though I don't know how complicated it is, I do believe we need a percentage based system with a minimum fee of $0.01 or $0.02.

It's not fair to compare our fees to bitcoin and other crypto - we offer a price stable crypto-currency free of counterparty risk. This is absolutely unique in the crypto world and as long as we are not forced to lower the fees by competition offering a comparable product, we should take advantage of this situation and keep the prices as they are. If you want to compare our prices with other crypto do it thoroughly: include all conversion costs and the counterparty risk.

No we don't, we have a relatively new, risky, complicated product that is not particularly liquid with very limited third party support. 
(So we're not competing with PayPal or online use of debit cards at this stage as some are suggesting.)

The key target markets that could be motivated to try it at this stage are places like Argentina, Greece, China etc.

Those lower fees based on a percentage system could still make the referral programme lucrative in lower income countries. While we will presumably be doing higher size transactions on average so Westerners referral programme will not be affected. If the system becomes so popular that we don't have the capacity to support smaller transaction sizes, then it can be addressed.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 12:17:15 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2015, 12:40:18 pm »
I do believe we need a percentage based system with a minimum fee of $0.01 or $0.02.

 +5% +5% +5%

PS and a MAX fee (a cap)

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2015, 12:44:43 pm »
some thoughts,

BitShares is not a currency - don't touch the current fee system.

however, make our currency cheaper - some %based fee would be okay in my opinion.

Offline freedom

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2015, 03:48:50 pm »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.

 +5% +5% +5%
We should charge the value added service, not the basic service.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 03:51:41 pm by free »

jakub

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2015, 04:08:09 pm »
Do you know Argentina is one of if not the most lucrative BitAsset markets because of capital controls and  USD demand?
These countries are the BitAsset target markets.
If they say the fees are too high we need to listen.
The key target markets that could be motivated to try it at this stage are places like Argentina, Greece, China etc.

Yes, these countries are the BitAsset target markets after we make the BitAssets actually work, i.e. there is a liquid market with low spreads allowing users to exchange BitAssets back and forth with fiat. Until that happens we don't have a working product to sell and discussing lowering its price is premature for me.

And who will make BitAssets liquid? Is it the low volume users from South Amercia, Asia or Africa or is it the high volume traders with lots of cash to play with? I bet it's the traders, so it's definitely them we need to satisfy at this initial stage. And from my understanding it's the unfinished GUI and unstable market rules that make them unhappy, not the fees.

If the traders start complaining that the fees are too high - then we should reconsider. But arguing that people in lower-income countries are not using BTS because the fees are too high does not make sense to me. I think they are not using BTS because the product doesn't work yet in the first place.

Also, apart from traders there is a second group of users we should care about: the merchants. The consumers are not really sensitive to transaction fees (assuming an average consumer makes a couple of online transactions a month). It's the merchant who is sensitive to the price as currently s/he needs to sacrifice about 2% of their turnover just to be able to receive payments. So from the merchant's point of view BTS should be significantly cheaper and this is our key customer. Also, a generous referral program (and it can only be generous if we keep the fees as they are) is an attractive option that we can offer to the merchants but our competition (PayPal & debit cards) cannot. It's our unique selling point.

To summarize: at this initial stage we should only care about traders and merchants. Ordinary users complaining about transaction fees are irrelevant.

No we don't, we have a relatively new, risky, complicated product that is not particularly liquid with very limited third party support. 
(So we're not competing with PayPal or online use of debit cards at this stage as some are suggesting.)
Yes, our product is currently far less user-friendly and more risky that PayPal and debit cards.
But for me a better strategy is to upgrade the product (by concentrating all efforts to make BitAssets liquid) than to admit our product is far worse and lower its price.

I understand that we can't target the micro-transaction market, or please everyone and though I don't know how complicated it is, I do believe we need a percentage based system with a minimum fee of $0.01 or $0.02.
I agree that a percentage-based system would make sense but as it requires a hard fork I'd agree with BM that at this stage there are other things with higher priorities than that.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 04:15:27 pm by jakub »

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2015, 05:12:09 pm »
... I think they are not using BTS because the product doesn't work yet in the first place.
...our product is far worse.

Over-charging for an inferior product that doesn't work, is not an effective strategy for any new business that I am aware of.

If the traders start complaining that the fees are too high - then we should reconsider.
Also, apart from traders there is a second group of users we should care about: the merchants. The consumers are not really sensitive to transaction fees (assuming an average consumer makes a couple of online transactions a month). It's the merchant who is sensitive to the price as currently s/he needs to sacrifice about 2% of their turnover just to be able to receive payments. So from the merchant's point of view BTS should be significantly cheaper and this is our key customer. Also, a generous referral program (and it can only be generous if we keep the fees as they are) is an attractive option that we can offer to the merchants but our competition (PayPal & debit cards) cannot. It's our unique selling point.


Traders are complaining. It looks like we need to lower fees for orders that are cancelled/not matched.
I agree merchants are key and we need to be able to undercut BitPay's 1% service fee while offering the referral programme.

The referral programme can still be as generous with a percentage based system in fact it may be FAR more lucrative with the right pricing strategy.

Quote
An analytical, data-driven pricing approach can help you:

- Optimize your pricing
- Identify pricing leaks and areas of opportunity
- Apply price discounting where it yields the highest return
- Achieve higher margins
- Sell more product
- Increase the value of your company
- Improve your profitability

By looking into the variables that influence customers’ value perception, one can determine...

- What your small customers should be paying
- Where your large customers are likely to be flexible
- Which products can support premium prices and which need to be competitive
- Whether discounts in certain areas can help you boost sales volume
- How much you can gain by implementing your new pricing structure.


I understand that we can't target the micro-transaction market, or please everyone and though I don't know how complicated it is, I do believe we need a percentage based system with a minimum fee of $0.01 or $0.02.
I agree that a percentage-based system would make sense but as it requires a hard fork I'd agree with BM that at this stage there are other things with higher priorities than that.

I think it's fairly high priority, given the current feedback.






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Offline pal

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2015, 05:36:22 pm »
guys, you are OK with the current fee.
but in fact, Chinese and other developing country will never accept the high transfer fee.
In China we spent no fee with alipay and most  bank card.
BTS will lose these market if the fee still keep about 0.6CNY
If you don't care about these market, OK, just keep higer fees. wish enough American like BTS and can be a real user.
+5%

Here in Argentina:
* Free bank accounts (no CC, just saving)
* No transfer fees (below 30K ARS)
* Instant transfers
In Russia all the same. It would be difficult to average people to grasp why they would have to pay the fees.

So we should hide the fee? Maybe wallet provider could help. He could set low fee for transfers, but for trading would be required lifetime membership purchased. Many apps monetize this way in AppStore.

We don't pay for facebook or google every time we use it (directly), because we are the product they sell us to advertisers. It is good model, BUT bitshares not mature enough for this. Right now we don't have a lot of options except make fees lower.
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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2015, 06:11:40 pm »
In Russia all the same. It would be difficult to average people to grasp why they would have to pay the fees.

And tell me, how many times a month do "average people" make online payments? 4? Maybe 5? Does it really matter how much you pay as long as it is in total less than a bus ticket?

The point is the fees do not matter for an average BTS user.
They matter only for heavy users and those are merchants and traders, not "average people".

When you decide your pricing strategy you need to know who your customer is. Basically there are three categories: the traders, the merchants, and "average people". The only price sensitive group out of these three are the traders, not "average people". So if you think about it, lowering the fees is a meaningless exercise that will do nothing (at this moment) but undermine our profitability.  Only if the traders start complaining it we should lower the market orders fees, but not the transaction fees for transferring money.

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2015, 06:23:32 pm »
Basically there are three categories: the traders, the merchants, and "average people". The only price sensitive group out of these three are the traders, not "average people".

So far we have had 'average people' from Poland, Russia, Argentina and China (one of our biggest markets) saying that the fee is too high for them and in their opinion, average users in their market.

ElMato is also the creator of LimeWallet, a product designed to appeal to his local market and the world, he also attends local groups and does BitShares give-aways so has interacted with as many potential customers as anyone. I respect their opinions.

Anyway we agree that some form of percentage based system would ultimately be better.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 06:25:55 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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jakub

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2015, 06:27:23 pm »
Over-charging for an inferior product that doesn't work, is not an effective strategy for any new business that I am aware of.
But if the product does not work it can be even for free and still nobody will use it. That's why I think we should concentrate our efforts on making the product work and not on lowering its price. Lowering the price will not compensate people for lack of liquidity. They won't use it anyway.

Traders are complaining. It looks like we need to lower fees for orders that are cancelled/not matched.
If the traders are indeed complaining I fully agree we should lower the market order fees. We should do everything to make them happy. They are our strategic partner and without them we are nothing as we don't have a product for our end-users.

The referral programme can still be as generous with a percentage based system in fact it may be FAR more lucrative with the right pricing strategy.
The referral programme can be generous by using two sources only: inflation or transaction fees. Inflation is just another name for making BTS holders pay for BTS users. IMO this not a sustainable strategy.

Offline fav

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2015, 06:31:02 pm »
In Russia all the same. It would be difficult to average people to grasp why they would have to pay the fees.

And tell me, how many times a month do "average people" make online payments? 4? Maybe 5? Does it really matter how much you pay as long as it is in total less than a bus ticket?

The point is the fees do not matter for an average BTS user.
They matter only for heavy users and those are merchants and traders, not "average people".

When you decide your pricing strategy you need to know who your customer is. Basically there are three categories: the traders, the merchants, and "average people". The only price sensitive group out of these three are the traders, not "average people". So if you think about it, lowering the fees is a meaningless exercise that will do nothing (at this moment) but undermine our profitability.  Only if the traders start complaining it we should lower the market orders fees, but not the transaction fees for transferring money.

 +5%

jakub

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2015, 06:38:26 pm »
So far we have had 'average people' from Poland, Russia, Argentina and China (one of our biggest markets) saying that the fee is too high for them and in their opinion, average users in their market.

I can see it but I think they are wrong.

Even in the poorest countries it does not matter if you pay $0.05 or $0.20 if your total monthly payment is less than the cost of a bottle of water. It just does not matter whether you are rich or poor. In our case it's liquidity that matters, not the transaction fees.

I'll eat my words if they can prove to me that the "average people" they are talking about are going to make more than 10 payments a month in BTS.

Offline Empirical1.2

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2015, 06:50:48 pm »
The referral programme can still be as generous with a percentage based system in fact it may be FAR more lucrative with the right pricing strategy.
The referral programme can be generous by using two sources only: inflation or transaction fees. Inflation is just another name for making BTS holders pay for BTS users. IMO this not a sustainable strategy.

No I mean a percentage based system could make the referral programme far more lucrative. I hate inflation too.

For example if you have 1000 potential customers. The average customer makes 10 transfers/purchases a month.

A. 500  make 10 purchases/transfers averaging $4 or less a month and even a percentage fee system is too high for them.
B. 250  make 10 purchases/transfers averaging $10 or less a month and $0.1 is too high for them but $0.01 is OK.
C. 125  make 10 purchases/transfers averaging $25 or less a month and $0.1 is too high for them but $0.025 is OK.
D. 62.5 make 10 purchases/transfer averaging $50 a month they would pay $0.1 but with a 0.1% system are only paying $0.05
E. 62.5 make 10 purchases/transfers averaging $100 a month and $0.1 is cheap to them.

A $0.1 fee would earn merchants/referrers $125 a month but a 0.1% system with a minimum of $0.01 would make them $150 a month. 

That's just a random example to make the numbers work in my favour but the point is while lowering fees could earn you less from one group (D in the example) total profit is actually higher.

You also end up attracting far more users who will be using BTS and BitAssets which will positively affect the CAP.

Or an even simpler analysis. If 100 out of a thousand potential customers will pay a $0.1 fee but 500 out of a thousand will pay $0.05 fee, obviously charging $0.05 is optimal if your running costs in both examples are the same.

At the moment I'm worried we're not appealing to a very large portion of our potential market. So I think we have to attempt to do some analysis and address the issue.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 06:54:07 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline sudo

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2015, 01:02:26 pm »
total costs of bts2/ numbers of transaction =per transaction  cost

now  total costs of bts2 is stable 

but  numbers of transaction  is very very very low
I  guess  the numbers of transaction   is less than price feed

It is totally  waste!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jakub

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2015, 01:11:23 pm »
total costs of bts2/ numbers of transaction =per transaction  cost

now  total costs of bts2 is stable 

but  numbers of transaction  is very very very low
I  guess  the numbers of transaction   is less than price feed

It is totally  waste!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@sudo, just to make a quick market research exercise please answer these two questions:
(1) roughly how many transactions in total have you personally made since BTS2 was launched?
(2) roughly how many times the following situation has happened to you: you wanted to make a transaction but ended up not doing it because you thought it was too expensive?

Offline Akado

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Re: Lets vote for lower fees!
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2015, 06:57:19 pm »
I'm perfectly fine with the transaction fees atm. People exaggerate when they mention we will pay a lot if the price shoots to a few cents. By then the fees will be already lowered.

Other path would be to use percentage based fees. Or even tiered percentage fees like most exchanges have. A tier per volume transacted.
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