Author Topic: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal  (Read 47029 times)

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Offline abit

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and still nobody answer my question:
1. what's the fee if we don't have this referral program?
2. should the fee change much because of the referral program? why?

good point
we need to ask ourselves a question: what's the fee if we don't have this referral program?
and another question: should the fee change much because of the referral program? why?
In my opinion, transfer fees and trade fees should as low as posible,
because  we need more active users, and good liquility.
the value of users/liquility is much more valuable than the poor transfer fees
and I guess referral program can work even more better with low transfer/trade fee,
we can got more fees for special service, such as issue an asset, active asset's market, upgrade account ....
A good practice for those who hate the referral program: introduce others to register via your faucet and referral link, and reimburse them the 80% fees paid by them (to you). You won't feel guilty anymore. If you want to cover some costs of doing so, reimburse less, for example 79.9%.

Do something please, don't just complain.
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Offline xeroc

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I believe you only pay to your registrar. Check accounts on cryptofresh, if they have something like "Registrar   openledger-reg", they were registered trough Openledger so they pay them. If you use the lightclient I believe you don't, however you might not have a faucet to register it so you'll need someone to send you the initial bts. I'm not sure though, give it a try.

Let me ask a simple question again. If I created an account through openledger, and I don't want to use their service anymore for my reasons, why the fuck I still need to pay fees to them? This is bullshit. Bitshares transaction fees should be paid to network. Business should charge separate fees for using their service. And if community wants to support ccedk or other business, this should be done through worker proposals voted by shareholders, or by crowdfund tokens, or by whatever, but not through this shitty referral. This does not bring new users in, this distracts them.
If you create a mail account at hotmail.com, do you see their advertisment if you read your mails?

is hotmail preventing you from registering another account at googlemail who has less/other ads?

Offline Akado

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I believe you only pay to your registrar. Check accounts on cryptofresh, if they have something like "Registrar   openledger-reg", they were registered trough Openledger so they pay them. If you use the lightclient I believe you don't, however you might not have a faucet to register it so you'll need someone to send you the initial bts. I'm not sure though, give it a try.

Let me ask a simple question again. If I created an account through openledger, and I don't want to use their service anymore for my reasons, why the fuck I still need to pay fees to them? This is bullshit. Bitshares transaction fees should be paid to network. Business should charge separate fees for using their service. And if community wants to support ccedk or other business, this should be done through worker proposals voted by shareholders, or by crowdfund tokens, or by whatever, but not through this shitty referral. This does not bring new users in, this distracts them.

by using the web wallet you're already using their service. If you don't want to, use the light client with a different account. What's the problem?

@clayop how can people take that into account if he hasn't shown a business plan yet? You claim he knows a lot of people, celebrities and exchanges, well, why doesn't he present BitShares with a plan on how he plans to use those to grow the platform? Then maybe people would consider. As it is, it doesn't make any sense because people have nothing to judge. OpenLedger at least, as simple as it might seem, as presented us with something.

Where's bitcrab's plan then? What does he intend to do? How does he intend getting more users? What plan can he shows us that his business model can outcompete OpenLedger? That way people might consider him. Until then, they won't.
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Offline alt

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Just fork it, then. That's not the result we want, but if there are irreconcilable needs, then you should try your low-fee model on another chain and see if it works.
I guess BTS have forked about 1000 times if forked it every time we are in argument.

Offline alt

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and still nobody answer my question:
1. what's the fee if we don't have this referral program?
2. should the fee change much because of the referral program? why?

good point
we need to ask ourselves a question: what's the fee if we don't have this referral program?
and another question: should the fee change much because of the referral program? why?
In my opinion, transfer fees and trade fees should as low as posible,
because  we need more active users, and good liquility.
the value of users/liquility is much more valuable than the poor transfer fees
and I guess referral program can work even more better with low transfer/trade fee,
we can got more fees for special service, such as issue an asset, active asset's market, upgrade account ....

Offline donkeypong

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Just fork it, then. That's not the result we want, but if there are irreconcilable needs, then you should try your low-fee model on another chain and see if it works.

Offline yvv

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I believe you only pay to your registrar. Check accounts on cryptofresh, if they have something like "Registrar   openledger-reg", they were registered trough Openledger so they pay them. If you use the lightclient I believe you don't, however you might not have a faucet to register it so you'll need someone to send you the initial bts. I'm not sure though, give it a try.

Let me ask a simple question again. If I created an account through openledger, and I don't want to use their service anymore for my reasons, why the fuck I still need to pay fees to them? This is bullshit. Bitshares transaction fees should be paid to network. Business should charge separate fees for using their service. And if community wants to support ccedk or other business, this should be done through worker proposals voted by shareholders, or by crowdfund tokens, or by whatever, but not through this shitty referral. This does not bring new users in, this distracts them.
 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 12:20:10 am by yvv »

Offline onceuponatime

I believe you only pay to your registrar. Check accounts on cryptofresh, if they have something like "Registrar   openledger-reg", they were registered trough Openledger so they pay them. If you use the lightclient I believe you don't, however you might not have a faucet to register it so you'll need someone to send you the initial bts. I'm not sure though, give it a try.

As for @clayop if those people are the ones bringing new people in, why shouldn't they benefit from it? What if no one was doing that? We wouldn't grow, at least not as fast definitely. I don't understand this it's like for you this is making the chain hostage.

I have already said countless times, these services are the ones bringing people in, it won't be you or me bringing a continuous stream of new users. It will be services. People alone won't try BitShares just "because". They will because they hear about services like OpenLedger. They are the ones who do all the marketing for the network. They are the ones who pay for that marketing. They are the ones spending time.

I don't know how you still think they are hurting the chain. Without incentive you think individual people will do that for you? That someone will loose the time , energy and money to do it? Yes, if you or me get someone to register, we are helping the network, but people won't come alone.

Users are not free. They need to be acquired. Customer acquisition has costs. It's not individuals like us who will bring in hundreds or thousands of users and provide a continuous stream of new users. Those same services you don't seem to want to help, will. Without that incentive you won't have new users.

What you seem to be forgetting is that if that same service didn't register that same user, that user would have never joined BitShares or even heard about it.

I think your logic is completely twisted. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Referral program can be "one of" incentives for business owners. But high fees are always disadvantage for users.

We are now killing a very important business that are connected to enormous market, china. I'm really worried that bitcrab leaves BTS with his customers and human networks (exchanges, celebrities). He can, because he's a business guy. If he find more attractive market than BTS he will move.

If he isn't here due to the principles that Bytemaster has expressed for the creation of this ecosystem, then let him go. You can make money from anything if you don't have principles, so no need for him to stay here. There are, no doubt, many profitable ways to lead people into further slavery. BitShares, in my opinion, is one of the best opportunities to lead people to freedom if they want it.


Offline clayop

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I believe you only pay to your registrar. Check accounts on cryptofresh, if they have something like "Registrar   openledger-reg", they were registered trough Openledger so they pay them. If you use the lightclient I believe you don't, however you might not have a faucet to register it so you'll need someone to send you the initial bts. I'm not sure though, give it a try.

As for @clayop if those people are the ones bringing new people in, why shouldn't they benefit from it? What if no one was doing that? We wouldn't grow, at least not as fast definitely. I don't understand this it's like for you this is making the chain hostage.

I have already said countless times, these services are the ones bringing people in, it won't be you or me bringing a continuous stream of new users. It will be services. People alone won't try BitShares just "because". They will because they hear about services like OpenLedger. They are the ones who do all the marketing for the network. They are the ones who pay for that marketing. They are the ones spending time.

I don't know how you still think they are hurting the chain. Without incentive you think individual people will do that for you? That someone will loose the time , energy and money to do it? Yes, if you or me get someone to register, we are helping the network, but people won't come alone.

Users are not free. They need to be acquired. Customer acquisition has costs. It's not individuals like us who will bring in hundreds or thousands of users and provide a continuous stream of new users. Those same services you don't seem to want to help, will. Without that incentive you won't have new users.

What you seem to be forgetting is that if that same service didn't register that same user, that user would have never joined BitShares or even heard about it.

I think your logic is completely twisted. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Referral program can be "one of" incentives for business owners. But high fees are always disadvantage for users.

We are now killing a very important business that are connected to enormous market, china. I'm really worried that bitcrab leaves BTS with his customers and human networks (exchanges, celebrities). He can, because he's a business guy. If he find more attractive market than BTS he will move.
Still, BitShares needs to please more than just bitcrab
Correct. But he's still important.
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Offline xeroc

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I believe you only pay to your registrar. Check accounts on cryptofresh, if they have something like "Registrar   openledger-reg", they were registered trough Openledger so they pay them. If you use the lightclient I believe you don't, however you might not have a faucet to register it so you'll need someone to send you the initial bts. I'm not sure though, give it a try.

As for @clayop if those people are the ones bringing new people in, why shouldn't they benefit from it? What if no one was doing that? We wouldn't grow, at least not as fast definitely. I don't understand this it's like for you this is making the chain hostage.

I have already said countless times, these services are the ones bringing people in, it won't be you or me bringing a continuous stream of new users. It will be services. People alone won't try BitShares just "because". They will because they hear about services like OpenLedger. They are the ones who do all the marketing for the network. They are the ones who pay for that marketing. They are the ones spending time.

I don't know how you still think they are hurting the chain. Without incentive you think individual people will do that for you? That someone will loose the time , energy and money to do it? Yes, if you or me get someone to register, we are helping the network, but people won't come alone.

Users are not free. They need to be acquired. Customer acquisition has costs. It's not individuals like us who will bring in hundreds or thousands of users and provide a continuous stream of new users. Those same services you don't seem to want to help, will. Without that incentive you won't have new users.

What you seem to be forgetting is that if that same service didn't register that same user, that user would have never joined BitShares or even heard about it.

I think your logic is completely twisted. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Referral program can be "one of" incentives for business owners. But high fees are always disadvantage for users.

We are now killing a very important business that are connected to enormous market, china. I'm really worried that bitcrab leaves BTS with his customers and human networks (exchanges, celebrities). He can, because he's a business guy. If he find more attractive market than BTS he will move.
Still, BitShares needs to please more than just bitcrab

Offline clayop

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I believe you only pay to your registrar. Check accounts on cryptofresh, if they have something like "Registrar   openledger-reg", they were registered trough Openledger so they pay them. If you use the lightclient I believe you don't, however you might not have a faucet to register it so you'll need someone to send you the initial bts. I'm not sure though, give it a try.

As for @clayop if those people are the ones bringing new people in, why shouldn't they benefit from it? What if no one was doing that? We wouldn't grow, at least not as fast definitely. I don't understand this it's like for you this is making the chain hostage.

I have already said countless times, these services are the ones bringing people in, it won't be you or me bringing a continuous stream of new users. It will be services. People alone won't try BitShares just "because". They will because they hear about services like OpenLedger. They are the ones who do all the marketing for the network. They are the ones who pay for that marketing. They are the ones spending time.

I don't know how you still think they are hurting the chain. Without incentive you think individual people will do that for you? That someone will loose the time , energy and money to do it? Yes, if you or me get someone to register, we are helping the network, but people won't come alone.

Users are not free. They need to be acquired. Customer acquisition has costs. It's not individuals like us who will bring in hundreds or thousands of users and provide a continuous stream of new users. Those same services you don't seem to want to help, will. Without that incentive you won't have new users.

What you seem to be forgetting is that if that same service didn't register that same user, that user would have never joined BitShares or even heard about it.

I think your logic is completely twisted. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
Referral program can be "one of" incentives for business owners. But high fees are always disadvantage for users.

We are now killing a very important business that are connected to enormous market, china. I'm really worried that bitcrab leaves BTS with his customers and human networks (exchanges, celebrities). He can, because he's a business guy. If he find more attractive market than BTS he will move.
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Offline Akado

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I believe you only pay to your registrar. Check accounts on cryptofresh, if they have something like "Registrar   openledger-reg", they were registered trough Openledger so they pay them. If you use the lightclient I believe you don't, however you might not have a faucet to register it so you'll need someone to send you the initial bts. I'm not sure though, give it a try.

As for @clayop if those people are the ones bringing new people in, why shouldn't they benefit from it? What if no one was doing that? We wouldn't grow, at least not as fast definitely. I don't understand this it's like for you this is making the chain hostage.

I have already said countless times, these services are the ones bringing people in, it won't be you or me bringing a continuous stream of new users. It will be services. People alone won't try BitShares just "because". They will because they hear about services like OpenLedger. They are the ones who do all the marketing for the network. They are the ones who pay for that marketing. They are the ones spending time.

I don't know how you still think they are hurting the chain. Without incentive you think individual people will do that for you? That someone will loose the time , energy and money to do it? Yes, if you or me get someone to register, we are helping the network, but people won't come alone.

Users are not free. They need to be acquired. Customer acquisition has costs. It's not individuals like us who will bring in hundreds or thousands of users and provide a continuous stream of new users. Those same services you don't seem to want to help, will. Without that incentive you won't have new users.

What you seem to be forgetting is that if that same service didn't register that same user, that user would have never joined BitShares or even heard about it.

I think your logic is completely twisted. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 11:48:08 pm by Akado »
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Offline clayop

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Currently referral business is not that working now. See the low TPS. Why do we have to support "in the future" thing now, with hurting existing business, such as transwiser?

When new businesses are completed and run, then we can agree with higher fee, if it is essential for them.

So I would argue that during use of network (tps) is low, we'd better to keep low fee, as said by @BTSdac

If someone really want high-fee based referral program, he must bring his own product before just arguing that.
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Offline yvv

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This describes the issue well... that chart is certainly telling.

As mentioned up-thread, there must be a compromise somewhere in this. Although the referral program is practically worthless right now we should probably not give up on it,  and although transactions are really expensive right now we should probably not give up on offering a cheaper solution.

I really don't get why should I pay 80% of fee to ccedk just for helping to register my account, instead of paying this fee to network? Ok, ccedk helped me, let them be rewarded for this, but to pay ~$80 to them to get out of their slavery is too much. These funds should go to network, which shares I have.

Because businesses are the ones who bring people in. A healthy business will attract much more people and thus help the network. No services, no users. Simple as that. They're the ones with the potential to bring in thousands of users, not you or me.

A healthy business should be rewarded by profit which it gets by charging fees for its service. I don't use ccedk services, and I am obligated to pay them $80 minimum just for signing me up to bitshares. Why the fuck is this? This is not the way to do business.

If you're using the web wallet you're using their services. They host the wallet.

And what if I am not using their web wallet? What if I am using desktop wallet? What if I will switch to bitshares-munich android wallet when it is ready? Will I still need to pay fee to ccedk just because they signed me up, and at same time pay fee to bitshares-munich because I use their service?

Offline Akado

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This describes the issue well... that chart is certainly telling.

As mentioned up-thread, there must be a compromise somewhere in this. Although the referral program is practically worthless right now we should probably not give up on it,  and although transactions are really expensive right now we should probably not give up on offering a cheaper solution.

I really don't get why should I pay 80% of fee to ccedk just for helping to register my account, instead of paying this fee to network? Ok, ccedk helped me, let them be rewarded for this, but to pay ~$80 to them to get out of their slavery is too much. These funds should go to network, which shares I have.

Because businesses are the ones who bring people in. A healthy business will attract much more people and thus help the network. No services, no users. Simple as that. They're the ones with the potential to bring in thousands of users, not you or me.

A healthy business should be rewarded by profit which it gets by charging fees for its service. I don't use ccedk services, and I am obligated to pay them $80 minimum just for signing me up to bitshares. Why the fuck is this? This is not the way to do business.

If you're using the web wallet you're using their services. They host the wallet.
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