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Messages - JonnyB

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211
How also making bitusd a core trading pair in gui also. With enough liquidity people would rather against bitusd than other coins.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

In the light wallet it is.
In the web GUI (openledger) it is not. 
I think Ronny from OL should focus on just bitusd and open.btc for now
theres alot of similar assets which all have almost zero volume OPEN.USD, OPEN.USDT, OPEN.SBD and OPEN.EURT

212
Perhaps have worker proposals contracts "we'll pay you 50USD in value each day" but make the 'value' in BTS.

Did you mean "but make the payment in BTS"? I was thinking about something like that... it doesn't solve problem with low liquidity of BitUSD but IMHO is closer to how people think when making a worker proposal.

Exactly, it wouldn't help with liquidity. If workers get paid 50 BitUSD per day it's easy enough to turn that in to $50 worth of BTS.

213
The kosher way to do this would be through a smart contract, like steem did. But, this would require some efforts from devs, and for this reason is unlikely to happen soon.

Yes the steem way makes sense. Hopefully this code could be lifted straight from Steem as they both use graphene.

214
the idea of paying bitUSD to worker is interesting and make sense.

but it will bring some challenge, the committee will need to borrow bitUSD, and sell BTS periodically  with high enough price to cover the debt position.

let's first do some calculation.

currently the reserve balance is 1,029,940,606 BTS, if we put half of these balance to collateral with a low enough price say 0.0018USD/BTS as"my margin call price", we can get 463473 bitUSD.

suppose we set budget at 80USD/hour, then these bitUSD can offer at least 241 days.

to make this happen, we need:
1.developers provide the necessary change, maybe a hard fork is needed?
2.committee draft a plan to borrow bitUSD and sell BTS periodically, committee will play the role a little like FED.

surely the precondition is that the community reach a consensus on doing this.

Absolutely we need consensus, but I don't think people will support accessing the reserve pool at a rate higher than the current max spending budget of:
14,675 BTS per hour.  (see here http://cryptofresh.com/reserve)
Like you say this max 14675 bts hour is equivalent to $80 per hour at todays prices.

How we make this max worker budget function as bitUSD instead of BTS is tricky.
 I can't see how it would work with the decentralised voting system if the committee is paying the workers.





215
Well, we cannot ignore that Steem took the intertubes in a viral way, which Bitshares failed (so far) to do - therefore, one would expect more SBD liquidity just from that alone.

What you propose here may also have merit, I confess the numbers and implications befuddle me .. it would make more sense to pay workers with smartcoins, but are there hidden implications, that's my concern.

Another key part of the reason is that the documentation about shorting and creating bitAssets is frankly very confusing .. I played around with it a couple of times, and always got margin called.. in my sleep.. because there's no stop-loss ..

I agree the whole shorting bitassets into existence is very confusing.
People get confused between forced settlements and margin calls.
I also think some people don't realise that they do no have a short position until they sell the bitassets that they create.
The inability of shorters to close their positions near settlement price is a big problem that is not widely understood.
I may make a video explaining the basics of how bitassets are created and then destroyed when a collateral position is closed.

216
As far as I can see this wont relieve selling pressure on BTS and it would increase the inflation.
     1.1. To create 1 bitUSD it takes 3x BTS, which means we'll be putting 3x BTS into the total supply.
     1.2. If workers want to sell their earnings, they will. If the demand for bitUSD is X then it will stay the same. Workers can and should trade their payments in BTS for bitUSD as they get it, now that would relieve selling pressure, increase liquidity and ensure the workers' compensation is fixed.

If the blockchain collateralized bitUSD into existence then where is the collateral? To me it seems the blockchain voting and payment can only pay in the core token. 

Would it really encourage traders to trust the system more if liquidity was provided by automated process rather than real activity? I suppose it might actually... but to an already complicated (but amazing) platform to add further complexity and a complex hard-fork seems like a bad idea.

What we could really do is fix the damn blockchain explorer showing ZERO volume for the bitUSD:BTS pair. That's an easy fix to generate more volume! Let's use the thousands of dollars already there! As traders start using bitshares to store value safely or to short the USD we wont have to worry about problems like this.

There is a reserve pool of "unavailable" BTS see here: http://cryptofresh.com/reserve
Currently just over a billion BTS
This fund is used to pay workers at a max rate of 14,677 BTS per hour but a lesser rate is usually elected.

Instead of paying a max rate of 14677 BTS per hour I am suggesting the max rate per hour is the equivalent value but in BitUSD.

If the backing collateral was from the reserve pool it wouldn't have a net inflationary value outcome because they could only force settle for 1:1 value.
The 3:1 dilution which you mention would not be expanding the supply of BTS because the collateral would be returned to the reserve pool in the event of a force settle.
I am afraid that it does not solve the problem of selling bitUSD by workers. Workers and witness sell to get fiat. Maybe part would be sold directly on bitUSD/USD market instead in bitUSD-BTS-USD order.  It would be better for BTS, but the only solution I see is bitUSD commonly used for trade see BitShares Munich project.

I think you misunderstand. You say "the problem of witnesses and workers selling their BitUSD for BTS"
This is actually the benefit.
Witnesses and workers would most likely sell their BitUSD to others, this means there would be a bigger supply of BitUSD for others to buy.



217
As far as I can see this wont relieve selling pressure on BTS and it would increase the inflation.
     1.1. To create 1 bitUSD it takes 3x BTS, which means we'll be putting 3x BTS into the total supply.
     1.2. If workers want to sell their earnings, they will. If the demand for bitUSD is X then it will stay the same. Workers can and should trade their payments in BTS for bitUSD as they get it, now that would relieve selling pressure, increase liquidity and ensure the workers' compensation is fixed.

If the blockchain collateralized bitUSD into existence then where is the collateral? To me it seems the blockchain voting and payment can only pay in the core token. 

Would it really encourage traders to trust the system more if liquidity was provided by automated process rather than real activity? I suppose it might actually... but to an already complicated (but amazing) platform to add further complexity and a complex hard-fork seems like a bad idea.

What we could really do is fix the damn blockchain explorer showing ZERO volume for the bitUSD:BTS pair. That's an easy fix to generate more volume! Let's use the thousands of dollars already there! As traders start using bitshares to store value safely or to short the USD we wont have to worry about problems like this.

There is a reserve pool of "unavailable" BTS see here: http://cryptofresh.com/reserve
Currently just over a billion BTS
This fund is used to pay workers at a max rate of 14,677 BTS per hour but a lesser rate is usually elected.

Instead of paying a max rate of 14677 BTS per hour I am suggesting the max rate per hour is the equivalent value but in BitUSD.

If the backing collateral was from the reserve pool it wouldn't have a net inflationary value outcome because they could only force settle for 1:1 value.
The 3:1 dilution which you mention would not be expanding the supply of BTS because the collateral would be returned to the reserve pool in the event of a force settle.

218
BitUSD   0.8 BTC buy wall / 1.3 BTC sell wall


Steem Backed dollar 50 BTC buy wall / 30BTC sell wall


There are a lot more Steem dollars around than BitUSD and they are much more liquid.

The key reason is because the Steem blockchain creates the Steem dollars autonomously and distributes them.

The Bitshares blockchain only creates and distributes BTS but relies on traders to create the BitUSD.

If the Bitshares blockchain paid our witnesses and workers in BitUSD instead of BTS it would have the following effects.

- Reduce selling pressure on BTS
- Create a large supply of BitUSD
- Create liquidity and confidence for traders to short even more BitUSD in to existence.
- Easier to understand how much worker proposals are being paid /asking for
- Workers would know how many dollars they were getting paid each month.
- We wouldn't be increasing the current inflation rate of BTS from what it is now

This proposal was the result of a long discussion here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,22935.0.html
Ultimately this would need a hard fork, money for development and shareholder consensus.

Please keep on topic and concise with any replies.

219
@bytemaster has downvoted this.

hmmmm

220
Time to close this thread.
After too many posts it becomes hard to track what's been said and confusion ensues.

The conclusion I have reached from reading all these posts is that while most agree BitUSD needs liquidity, the method of creating BitUSD by committee for sell side liquidity is not supported by a large majority.

However. Another suggestion brought up by xeroc where worker proposals are paid in BitAssets instead of BTS got support from alot of people.

The details of how this might work need to discussed so I am going to start a new thread proposing this idea in more detail.
Thanks for all the feedback.


222
General Discussion / Re: poll for bitUSD parameter optimization
« on: August 05, 2016, 12:08:21 pm »
What is the parameter actually doing?

2.)  reduce max hourly settle volume to 0.5%

So I can maximum settle a total volume of 0.5% per hour? When I want to settle 100 BitUSD, I can only settle 0.5 BitUSD in one hour? That would slow down any black swan event.

What is the reason for 20% right now? What does it protect?

If I understand it correctly, it's percet of whole supply of particular asset. Right now there are 127098 bitUSD in existence so with current rules you can settle 25419.6 bitUSD per hour, with new rules only 635.5 bitUSD per hour. Can anyone confirm?

Is this 635.5 BitUSD per person/account or 635.5 BitUSD per hour in total for everyone?
If it is per account someone could distribute the BitUSD they want to settle across 20 accounts and settle $127098 in an hour.

Can someone confirm?
in total

So that would mean If someone settled $635.5 everyone else would be unable to settle their BitUSD for the next hour?
why 0.5% what is wrong with 20%?

223
In the past I would have agreed with this idea, but after what I've seen recently, I am going to oppose it. I used to think about creating BitUSD from the reserve pool, but there are negatives with it and there are many negatives smartcoins in general.

Dynamic peg is dangerous! NuBits failed and that should be a lesson to us as well. There are many dangers here, that people should look at :

What happens if the committee goes rogue or gets hacked? The more assets that exist, the harder it will be to stop the losses. It would take days for the community to vote for another committee. Most people here would agree that governments create more problems than they solve. Same should go here too. We've created something decentrilised, just to make it centralised again? Yes I know, we are the ones voting for the committee, but who guarantees that we are voting for the right people?

What is the best collateral ratio and who says what is best? What if BTS' price drops 80% in one day? MakerDAO is a clever idea that is taking this a step further with their special SDR solution, that gives one of their tokens stable value, but not pegged on to anything. BitShares holders don't gain much from those assets, but they are also not going to lose much in case something goes wrong. The price might go up because people are buying BTS, but that's irrelevant.

Why would someone buy BTS and convert them into BitUSD, when the only thing he does is to raise the value of BTS and then risk losing all his money in an extreme scenario where the price goes down? It doesn't make sense to risk so much, in order to get 50% or less in a form of a stable token and then probably end up losing up to 100% of your total value in during extreme situations. Nobody, with the right mind, would take that risk. Again this is addressed by MakerDAO, in a special way.

The whole SDB is a scam guys. You have to face it sooner than later. Same thing as Nubits. If there are no actual USD/CNY reserves, then these tokens rely wholly on speculation of BTS. That's what I'd call an amazing ponzi scheme. Yes a PONZI! Who do you think we are? The FED and we can print USD from our blockchain? This is mental guys. Not even the FED itself should have the ability to print dollars, let alone the BitShares community.

The value of those BitUSD solely relies only on people buying BTS and nothing else. As long as BTS has a 'price', they have some value. Even with limitless dilution there is a limit in the dilution which BTS can take before its price crashes and then ends up crashing the value of those BitUSD.
Markets are clever despite that they are irrational most of the time. There is a reason that BitShares are low in market cap and that smartcoins haven't gained traction. If you can't trust a bank or an exchange, what would make you trust a 10M start up? Dynamic peg is fiction and might be currently working under some certain conditions, but the fact that it could fail under specific ones, should be worrisome.

TL;DR
1) Dynamic peg = Fantasy
2) Printing our stable coins = Scam/Ponzi
3) Dynamic peg has no protection against : the exchanges we are fighting against (yes we take the price feed from exchanges),  the committee which decides the price feeds and depends solely on people constantly buying BTS on those exchange so that the price doesn't go to 0 or just even drop substantially.

You raise some interesting points and I agree with some of what you say.

- The committee is not to be fully trusted as it is run by humans who are fallible and inconsistent. 
- If this issuance of BitUSD was done autonomously by the blockchain then it would be a much better solution. (as steem dollars are issued)
- SDRs that you mentioned are just a basket of 5 major currencies and a BitSDR would just be another bitasset.
- dillution is limited to about 10 million bts a month
 
Our bitassets are not perfect pegged coins they have the flaws that you mention such as:
relying solely on the 10 million dollar market cap of BTS, relying on price feeds from poloniex, relying on witnesses for accurate prices.

However, these issues will be reduced if BTS is more widely adopted and the market cap improves. Even then the bitassets will not be perfect but they will be a better choice for many people. To me it was obvious that nubits would fail because of the human element, BTS is much smarter and much more decentralised and autonomous.  Perfect no, but the best chance I have seen to create a synthetic dollar that is not an IOU and cannot be controlled.
Remember BTS is an experiment.

The conversation in this thread has changed to worker proposals being paid in bitassets rather than just creating bitusd and selling it. Maybe I should start a new thread with this heading.



224
General Discussion / Re: poll for bitUSD parameter optimization
« on: August 05, 2016, 10:40:53 am »
What is the parameter actually doing?

2.)  reduce max hourly settle volume to 0.5%

So I can maximum settle a total volume of 0.5% per hour? When I want to settle 100 BitUSD, I can only settle 0.5 BitUSD in one hour? That would slow down any black swan event.

What is the reason for 20% right now? What does it protect?

If I understand it correctly, it's percet of whole supply of particular asset. Right now there are 127098 bitUSD in existence so with current rules you can settle 25419.6 bitUSD per hour, with new rules only 635.5 bitUSD per hour. Can anyone confirm?

Is this 635.5 BitUSD per person/account or 635.5 BitUSD per hour in total for everyone?
If it is per account someone could distribute the BitUSD they want to settle across 20 accounts and settle $127098 in an hour.

Can someone confirm?

225
Another solution would fit nicely would be that all worker proposals are paid in BitUSD but this would require a hard fork.
That's not true. I proposed on several occasions to create a new multisig account (owned by the committee) that actually creates the workers for people looking to work for BitShares, gets the BTS and borrows bitUSD at ratio 3x or more) to pay them to the "employee" ...
All we need to do is to agree on this process since the shareholder needs to pay 3x - MORE for the worker in BTS terms to fund the collateral.

I'm glad you agree this would be a suitable alternative. We should look to develop this idea further.
When I said it would require a hard fork I meant for it to be done in a decentralised way. 
Yes the committee-account could pay BitUSD to workers that mirrors the pay that they receive for their own worker proposals. (but this isn't very elegant)
The ultimate solution would be if all workers were paid in Bitusd that was created autonomously using the funds in the reserve pool as backing. (this would need a hard fork)

Worker pay should not necessarily be limited to bitUSD. A worker may choose another bitAsset to receive payment. Implementing this through worker proposal is easy to do without any changes in protocol. This could be done now for testing, and if it works as intended it could be coded into the protocol later.

The reserve pool is all BTS. BitUSD is created through debt.  Where would the corresponding debt be held?

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