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Messages - AdamBLevine

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151
General Discussion / Re: Initial price for a XTS
« on: July 02, 2014, 04:07:36 pm »
There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like  2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:

1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.

When was the number of shares increased from 4 million BTS to 2 billion?  Any reason outside of an artificially inflated market cap?

Yes, because in my opinion prices like    1000 XTS are easier to deal with in the early days than prices of .001 after it gains bitcoin level acceptance.

Ok

152
General Discussion / Re: Initial price for a XTS
« on: July 02, 2014, 03:56:16 pm »
There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like  2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:

1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.

When was the number of shares increased from 4 million BTS to 2 billion?  Any reason outside of an artificially inflated market cap?

By theory of economics, it would not change or "artificially inflate" the market cap.  Market cap = total # of shares x value of one share,  so if total # goes up, value of an individual share goes down and market cap stays the same


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Right, but the way many of the larger indexes calculate are based on total market cap as represented by (current price) x (total available supply).

I'm not talking about any actual change, i'm asking if this change was made to maximize placement on market cap coin leaderboards?

153
General Discussion / Re: Initial price for a XTS
« on: July 02, 2014, 02:32:03 pm »
There are 2 billion XTS and 2 million PTS and PTS represents only 50% of XTS... so I would say something like  2*PTS_PRICE/1000 as a baseline and then adjust for other factors such as:

1) there exists a working product
2) it is DPOS
3) it represents shares in X vs everything but X.

When was the number of shares increased from 4 million BTS to 2 billion?  Any reason outside of an artificially inflated market cap?

154
If you know than why are you still acting like you don't understand? Why are you acting like people with complaints should just get over it and shut up?

155
You realize that even you don't really know what you're talking about, and you're trying to write the wiki article.  This is the problem.

Quote
Bitshares is a 100% proof of stake system so all the shares are pre-allocated and there is no need for the dilution of stake

In the new paradigm that is likely not true, delegates must be paid and since no tokens were retained the best option now is to create an inflationary system where new tokens are created to pay the delegates.    Alternatively, you rely on delegates doing it for very cheap which means you get only delegates whose time is not worth very much, which form the backbone of the network.   

Not big deal, but you lack some knowledge here he he :)

Why should I believe I am wrong if you don't explain how?  Not all of us can subsist on blind faith.

156
I still do believe

It's obvious you believe, the question is can you articulate your belief or do you just believe whatever words come out of his mouth?   I can't even tell what the vision is any more, it was clear to me in the beginning.  Help me understand.

157
You realize that even you don't really know what you're talking about, and you're trying to write the wiki article.  This is the problem.

Quote
Bitshares is a 100% proof of stake system so all the shares are pre-allocated and there is no need for the dilution of stake

In the new paradigm that is likely not true, delegates must be paid and since no tokens were retained the best option now is to create an inflationary system where new tokens are created to pay the delegates.    Alternatively, you rely on delegates doing it for very cheap which means you get only delegates whose time is not worth very much, which form the backbone of the network.   

158
Why do you wait when we are actively testing the network? To say that they have not produced a product is to not understand the nature of the product they are producing. First and foremost, over the past 4 weeks or so there have been 5 iterations of test networks each becoming successively better in the same way that each of BM's realizations about designing theses systems has become successively better. The true impediment both in design and development was shaking off the popular misconception that these system are reliant upon math and not fundamentally human interaction. When you understand that you can automate a shareholder run company using p2p open source network the possibilities abound and you realize that the competitors that many have cited in this thread and others are not competitors at all. No one is doing what Bitshares is doing. It is not about perfection, it is simply about realizing what has made companies successful for thousands of year hitherto. When you put those characteristics on a blockchain you realize that we are upon the precipice of the Napster of finance and every other industry that uses internet for its operation. Sean Parker once said "A million dollars isn't cool. You know what is? A billion dollars." Well I say to you now a billion dollars isn't cool. You know what is a trillion dollars!

Patience is a virtue and apparently things are not getting translated in Chinese or there is an unnecessary lack of patience within the Chinese Bitshares Community. Either way, I wonder whether or not those who complain about Invictus and there performance up until now are so short sighted that they cannot understand the economic implication of what is being produced here. It seems that you are so short sighted that you would sell stake in something that will have a multi trillion dollar market capitalization for a mere couple thousand dollars. In that case continue your complaining and sell your stake to me. But I suggest you understand that given where we are in our global economic development, particularly understanding that the credit expansion in China will lead to a global downturn of unprecedented proportions, this is the greatest investment that you could have ever made in your lifetime. And to concede to the irrational yet all too present desire to have things immediately when they can be better realized in the future would only serve to make you more bitter later on than you are now.

If you cannot code, then promote. If you cannot promote then invest. If you can do any of those things then with the utmost respect I say to you shut up, because you are not contributing, rather you are detracting from something that is so much bigger than you and I, something that has taken more than a year to produce.

Comparatively speaking bitcoin was several years in the making before the first iterations of a tangible product. In fact when you look at the technology, economists and technologists were predicted the rise of a bitcoin like currency since the late 1990's. For you to not have the patience to wait a year, even two, is tantamount to you not understanding the reality of software development and fully unprecedented technologies, particularly when this technology could mean the eminent realization or loss of millions of dollars.

I wish I could speak Chinese to further assuage your concerns about the development process, but alas I am but an ignorant American. But if my economics courses have taught me anything, it is that Bitshares, not bitcoin, or any other crypto currency network, spells the end of central banking and the government monopoly on force and violence. If my computer science classes have taught me anything, it is that this is a better development team than any other in the space.

I do not pretend to understand your current situation but know that if you hold steadfast and continue to support this community and its development both financially and otherwise the reward is far greater than you could ever fathom.

i think you are over hyping something that is not really there. You are just dreaming. 1 trillion doller market, good luck.


Clout, the reason you can't re-assure him is because you are just as clueless as he is.  The only thing that can actually solve this situation is for Invictus to deliver.  The complaints are perfectly legitimate, expectations have been very poorly managed and Invictus has done a pretty terrible job executing by any standards they've set for themselves.

159
I'm clearly your enemy, and invictus is doing a fantastic job.
Still you are educating others about our goals and techniques .. and you are doing great explaining it!

Unfortunately those guys seem to have no interest in constructive feedback .. otherwise they would join the discussion over here and not on a private skype chat.

Maybe one more thing: they issue with stake in several other systems (best example is NXT) is that the stakes are not fairly distributed .. sure bitshares stakes are also not fairly distributed (i guess) but your surely agree that we have a much wider distribution of stake than any other proof-of-stake crypto such as peercoin/blackcoin/darkcoin and others.
That's maybe one of the big advantages we have over here.

BTW. we have initiated contact with freenode admins to recover the already registered #bitshares channel ..

Why would groups like swarm come to bitshares when others have a working product, right now, that don't demand 20% of their money supply before the community will  "support" them.     Why would they want to visit these confusing, hostile forums when they could save themselves the trouble and bang their head against a more conveniently located brick wall

Bitshares is one of the smallest 2.0 communities, do you notice how when 30 people join to complain about their investment taking an extra 200% of the timeline that was sold to them it's a big deal?  That's because there are less than two hundred active members on the forum, and the ones that are left are the TRUE BELIEVERS.    Invictus did one thing "right", they locked people in so as they make bad choices there is no way for their investors to escape them. 

I'm an industry evangelist.  I want all the 2.0 protocols to succeed.  Why are you arguing with me?  Because you backed what turned out to be a very risky horse.  I'm sorry about that, we all believed in Daniels vision in the beginning.

160
Quote
-Appearing on the 3rd day and saying – 'Sorry for the delay, I was drunk from the IPO party 3 days ago';
.....this is really a point you want to hang your hat on?   Things are confusing in early days, I would assume you'd be sympathetic.

I am really sympathetic – I have my share of drinking problems… I can only imagine how drunk will I get when I have scammed people for 10 Mil and have to do no work for it… really drunk like 3 day total obliviation…
You realize that unless you're closely paying attention, most people in the crypto space think Bitshares is an out and out scam, right?  It's just blowing my mind you can be so blind to the irony.

Let me show you what Invictus looks like from the outside, this was in the swarm skype chat.   


Quote
[6/24/2014 10:06:03 AM] Niceplum: Adam B. Levine, I spent 20+ hrs researching bitshares, its a ponzi
[6/24/2014 10:06:08 AM] Adam B. Levine: it's really not
[6/24/2014 10:06:08 AM] Adam B. Levine: lol
[6/24/2014 10:06:12 AM] Joel Dietz (SWARM Agent X) : it's a bad joke wishing that it was a ponzi
[6/24/2014 10:06:13 AM] Niceplum: time will tell
[6/24/2014 10:06:17 AM] Adam B. Levine: I would agree with Joel
[6/24/2014 10:06:30 AM] Niceplum: how does it expect to give people back more money
[6/24/2014 10:06:32 AM] Niceplum: if they buy BitUSD
[6/24/2014 10:06:35 AM] Niceplum: and then convert back
[6/24/2014 10:06:47 AM] Adam B. Levine: that's not the majority of the bitshares project
[6/24/2014 10:06:59 AM] Adam B. Levine: the interesting part is the underlying technology they've reinvented
[6/24/2014 10:07:02 AM] Niceplum: no, but that is a ponzi
[6/24/2014 10:07:07 AM] Adam B. Levine: no, that is a confidence game
[6/24/2014 10:07:12 AM | Edited 10:07:14 AM] Adam B. Levine: a ponzi implies there is a guy named ponzi
[6/24/2014 10:07:14 AM] Niceplum: which technology?
[6/24/2014 10:07:20 AM] Adam B. Levine: delegated proof of stake
[6/24/2014 10:07:23 AM] Niceplum: where
[6/24/2014 10:07:26 AM] Adam B. Levine: they're on alpha chain 5
[6/24/2014 10:07:32 AM] Niceplum: source?
[6/24/2014 10:07:38 AM] Adam B. Levine: bitsharestalk.com
[6/24/2014 10:07:41 AM] Adam B. Levine: good luck
[6/24/2014 10:07:44 AM] Adam B. Levine: :)
[6/24/2014 10:07:48 AM] Niceplum: actual source?
[6/24/2014 10:07:51 AM] Niceplum: is it on there
[6/24/2014 10:07:55 AM] Adam B. Levine: yeah hang on
[6/24/2014 10:08:40 AM] Adam B. Levine: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5250.0
[6/24/2014 10:09:45 AM] Adam B. Levine: both NXT and Bitshares are really attacking confirmation times, which things like msc and xcp demonstrate are quite long in the bitcoin paradigm where blocks occasionally take an hour
[6/24/2014 10:09:58 AM] Adam B. Levine: it didnt used to matter
[6/24/2014 10:10:16 AM] Adam B. Levine: but now when actions are only as granular as how long it takes for it to be included in a block, suddenly it's a lifetime
[6/24/2014 10:10:43 AM] Niceplum: BitShares isn't a cryptocurrency though, how is it possible to compare them
[6/24/2014 10:10:50 AM] Adam B. Levine: how can you say that?
[6/24/2014 10:11:16 AM] Niceplum: because the whitepaper defines it as a decentralized for-profit bank?
[6/24/2014 10:11:33 AM | Edited 10:11:39 AM] Adam B. Levine: that's like saying bitcoin isn't a cryptocurrency because its whitepaper defines it as decentralized cash
[6/24/2014 10:11:50 AM] orperelman: lol
[6/24/2014 10:11:52 AM] Adam B. Levine: cryptocurrency is a broad categorical classificaiton having to do with how the network actually works, not what it calls itself
[6/24/2014 10:12:08 AM] Niceplum: well then its not decentralized cash
[6/24/2014 10:12:28 AM] Adam B. Levine: it's a token that can be transmitted irrevocably to any network connected terminal
[6/24/2014 10:12:37 AM] Adam B. Levine: call it what you, that's a token and tokens are cryptocurrencies
[6/24/2014 10:12:48 AM] Niceplum: irrevocably? but isn't that against the idea of TaPOS
[6/24/2014 10:12:52 AM] Adam B. Levine: unless you're talking about the kind you hold in your hand
[6/24/2014 10:12:56 AM] Niceplum: where people vote whats valid and not
[6/24/2014 10:12:58 AM] Adam B. Levine: TaPOS was thrown out
[6/24/2014 10:13:07 AM] Adam B. Levine: :)
[6/24/2014 10:13:12 AM] Adam B. Levine: this is DPOS
[6/24/2014 10:13:18 AM] Niceplum: DPOS?
[6/24/2014 10:13:21 AM] Adam B. Levine: TaPOS was (Transactions as Proof of Stake)
[6/24/2014 10:13:28 AM] Adam B. Levine: DPOS is Delegated Proof of Stake
[6/24/2014 10:13:36 AM] Niceplum: which means?
[6/24/2014 10:13:43 AM] Adam B. Levine: Feel free to read up on it
[6/24/2014 10:13:52 AM] Adam B. Levine: github link is in the thread linked earlier
[6/24/2014 10:13:55 AM] Niceplum: its not transparent forging is it
[6/24/2014 10:14:00 AM] Adam B. Levine: it seems similar
[6/24/2014 10:14:20 AM] Adam B. Levine: but its not based on your stake, its based on the stake people throw behind you based on transparent performance
[6/24/2014 10:14:52 AM] Adam B. Levine: votes are cast automatically I believe for the best performing delegates judged by transaction inclusion rate, long term consistency, etc
[6/24/2014 10:15:03 AM] Adam B. Levine: but i am not an expert on this at all
[6/24/2014 10:15:32 AM] Niceplum: massive house of cards
[6/24/2014 10:15:43 AM] Adam B. Levine: just a guy who has been watching and talking with and yelling at the larimer folks to know they might look like a ponzi, but really they're just engineers who have no desire or ability to control optics
[6/24/2014 10:16:05 AM] Adam B. Levine: you're making me want to defend them just because I don't think you actually know what you're talking about, and that's odd because I"m quite annoyed with them.
[6/24/2014 10:16:21 AM] Adam B. Levine: if you have specific complaints please make them, don't just throw mud
[6/24/2014 10:17:31 AM] Niceplum: it cannot remain decentralized indefinitely, but I'll leave it to someone more technically knowledgable to argument that
[6/24/2014 10:18:04 AM] Niceplum: brb
[6/24/2014 10:18:32 AM] Adam B. Levine: happy to chat with you seperately, I really don't get how you can say definitive things like "cannot" when that's true of ANY of these protocols, they can all be modified should the need be there so again it's like saying it's not cryptocurrency.  Why this over all others?
[6/24/2014 10:18:45 AM] Adam B. Levine: ;)
[6/24/2014 10:18:52 AM] Adam B. Levine: Incidentally your interview is running on Saturday
[6/24/2014 10:24:03 AM] Michael Sullivan: Are delegates secure?
[6/24/2014 10:25:45 AM] Michael Sullivan: Bitshares may finally be on right track, hard to know. But yeah it's been frustrating trying to keep up with the dev and tech branding over the past year.
[6/24/2014 10:31:16 AM | Edited 10:31:21 AM] Adam B. Levine: I've got a technical friend looking at the delegate requirements right now, I might wind up being the face of a few while he runs the technical stuff on the backend.    It's an interesting approach, complete transparency does in fact make it quite hard to cheat
[6/24/2014 10:31:27 AM] Adam B. Levine: (for more than one instance)
[6/24/2014 10:36:20 AM] Niceplum: isn't the whole result of proof of stake that the rich get richer?
[6/24/2014 10:38:08 AM] Janislav: it is not different than with bitcoin. rich people buy a lot of miners and get richer
[6/24/2014 10:39:23 AM] Adam B. Levine: right, the problem isn't how you get your resources but rather that some people have more resources than others
[6/24/2014 10:39:43 AM] Adam B. Levine: This is another thing invictus tried to address, Protoshares was supposed to be CPU minable only and worked best on CPUs
[6/24/2014 10:39:57 AM] Adam B. Levine: problem is, someone with money can just rent a bunch of servers from amazon by the hour and min/max, just like with any other way
[6/24/2014 10:40:08 AM] Adam B. Levine: So the problem is that "stake" is capital-scalable, rather than human-scalable
[6/24/2014 10:40:46 AM] Adam B. Levine: really what we want is as broad an even a distribution on a human level as possible, but there's no proof-of-unique-human yet that's easy and cheap and pervasive, so here we are
[6/24/2014 10:43:23 AM] Niceplum: well, it will require some form of reputation system which assumes a consensus
[6/24/2014 10:43:38 AM] Adam B. Levine: yep, so it won't happen
[6/24/2014 10:43:50 AM] Niceplum: exactly
[6/24/2014 10:43:59 AM] Adam B. Levine: thus, everybody does everything - Many of us watch them all, and whatever works we'll cannabilize

I'm clearly your enemy, and invictus is doing a fantastic job.

161
Sorry, I have enjoyed this but you had a good call - I've got dinner and a movie, cheers!

162
I do not like many things in I3 and I say them publicly with a hope they will change for better!

Let me tell you what I really do not like:

-Starting an IPO for 10 MIL US Dollars;

-Giving no clue what the company will actually do(not with the money, in general);

-Appearing on the 3rd day and saying – 'Sorry for the delay, I was drunk from the IPO party 3 days ago';

-Disappearing again with hardly any explanations…

and you should not like those things more than me – your name is on their joke of a site…

PS I think I am done with this topic.


[edit] added 'do'
Quote
-Starting an IPO for 10 MIL US Dollars;
So you don't like that they set a maximum funding goal as well as a minimum funding goal.  This contrasts to Invictus which did not set a maximum funding goal or a minimum funding goal.   Why is this something evil for swarm to do and fine for Invictus to do?  What exactly is evil about setting an ambitious maximum funding goal?  Remember, that's the point at which they say they will stop taking money from people, not some arbitrary amount being demanded.   

Quote
-Giving no clue what the company will actually do(not with the money, in general);

If you don't know what the company does, you shouldn't invest.  Nobody is forcing anybody, what exactly is the problem?   Swarm is pretty clear about what they are, they are a crowdfunding platform that generates custom tokens for projects.  If you buy the Swarm token, whenever a project launches on the swarm platform 1% of the tokens (or it might be 1.5%, not looking at numbers) are distributed to all holders of swarm tokens... just like protoshares, except they actually have the tech ready and are doing it.     If you have a problem with swarms concept, you should have a big problem with Invictus because Protoshares IS THE SAME THING except Invictus decides where all the money goes and it doesnt look like they've done a very good job.    If your concern is that you can't understand it, are you saying that they should have this all together when you do not expect the same from Invictus?  Ask a new person if AGS/PTS/BTS/BTS_X/BTS_ME is clear, it's not.   Swarm at least hasn't created a giant hairball of confusion, they just have initial "what is that" confusion.    Do you really want to argue this point?

Quote
-Appearing on the 3rd day and saying – 'Sorry for the delay, I was drunk from the IPO party 3 days ago';
.....this is really a point you want to hang your hat on?   Things are confusing in early days, I would assume you'd be sympathetic.

Quote
-Disappearing again with hardly any explanations…

Unless you do something crazy like email them at their advertised email addresses, skype the founder, join their hipchat, etc. etc.  again do you really want to argue about communication competency?

Quote
and you should not like those things more than me – your name is on their joke of a site…
I already gave them shit for not being understanding of a confused guy who came into their chat, yelled a bunch and got himself kicked.  It was the wrong thing to do and they'll suffer his hate for it.   My name is on the site because I believe crowdfunding is an exceptionally important area that cryptocurrency is just about to disrupt, and Swarm is an ambitious attempt executing towards that vision.   That's the quote I have on the site, I'm totally comfortable with my exposure.   I'm not part of the company, they've never paid me any money and they've listened when I cautioned them about things like releasing the token without attaching any value to it (which eventually wound up being the 1% distribution).   

Of course you're done with the topic, I'm asking you to back up your hate with some actual data and all you've got is that you want Invictus to succeed and anyone pointing out the reasons why that chance is slipping away are the enemy.   You are blinded by your investment, and your behavior is to the detriment of the entire community you wish to protect. 

163
Umm, no.  Criticism that is grounded in reality is fine.  You don't like that I'm critical of Invictus and you certainly don't like that now many people are coming out of the woodwork echoing those things I've been complaining about for six months now. 

I'm sorry you don't like how I talk, but I've lost my patience after for months trying to help Invictus avoid these exact problems.  You'll notice today Stan admitted that they should have followed my guidance and NOT gone from 10% allocated of BTS (PTS original plan) to 100% allocated (PTS/AGS) plan.  But at the time they were ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE that nothing would go wrong, so why leave buffer when you can maximize for the shareholders.    Now, the delegate system is FUCKED because the pie is all allocated and so we're talking about moving to an INFLATIONARY system after daniel made this gigantic stink about how wasteful mining is and how we're smarter and can do it for free.

I get that you, like many, are all in.  Just because you are doesn't mean the rest of us need to stick our heads in the ground like idiots and pretend things are going well.  They're not.  Invictus is WAY behind and that is assuming there are no more unknown unknowns that jump out and cause the system to be thrown out as TAPOS was before it.

164
Any criticism of Invictus is designated "troll" by the faithful choir of the forum (hey guys! it's been a while).

I'm only here waiting for the delegate situation to become clear to me, and of course to watch you guys laying out the welcome matt for concerned to-this-point silent investors.

165
The amazing bitshares community at work!   See everyone?  THIS is why you should pay 20% of your money supply to use the Bitshares toolkit, what an amazing deal.

I am better off fight over misunderstandings all day long and even burning my money, than giving it to some of the projects you support - like swarm…

[edit] 'better off fight over misunderstandings all day long and even'
[edit] 'be' added.

Wonderful!  I have complete control over tonyk's investment decisions!   My power grows....

lol, seriously - Why do you think I care who you give your money to?  Aren't you one of the people here who has flat out said they put all their investable funds into Angelshares, and thus were "all in"?

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