Author Topic: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once  (Read 58949 times)

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Offline BldSwtTrs

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #120 on: October 19, 2014, 10:12:11 am »
So what happens to the idea that scalability requires having multiple blockchains running in parallels?

Is the "MasterDAC" BTS will have only one blockchain or will be composed of several blockchains?


(Overall I think the proposition in the OP is a good idea, I am just trying to understand).

Offline xeroc

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #121 on: October 19, 2014, 10:19:33 am »
一天一个想法,3I的诚信在哪里?规则就是规则,这样搞和原来的规则差别实在太大了!

I am happy to translate your words here:

Where is 3I's integrity, why change the rules so often? Rule is rule, current proposal is very different to previous one.

I agree, too much impatience. If you change the fundamentals now then you tell all investors that you may do it again in the future. This can only result in a calapse of confidence. I would urge the core developers to stem this quickly with a reassuring statement and pray you haven't already let the cat out of the bag
It's some kind of interesting that people are already panicking (tanking price) because of a proposal ..

In the end it's a shame to have investors on board that won't allow an open discussion of a proposal and respond wo BM's openness with sell pressure ..

Also, I have the impression that people in the timezones around BM, are alot more patient and open for discussion than the following timezones which react stupidly IMHO ..

The OP still is a PROPOSAL... and for this not around here for long should be made one thing clear: BM's proposals almost never get implemented as initially proposed ... this is all a hugh discussion
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Offline Pheonike

Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #122 on: October 19, 2014, 10:34:34 am »
Rather just a proposal or real, the effect is the same. It would be a shame not to do it since it'd already being accounted for in loss value.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #123 on: October 19, 2014, 10:35:56 am »
Rather just a proposal or real, the effect is the same. It would be a shame not to do it since it'd already being accounted for in loss value.
so then, the right thing for BM to do is NOT publicly discuss proposals and force changes upon us ..

you really like to see this happen? because I don't
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Offline mf-tzo

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #124 on: October 19, 2014, 10:41:27 am »
I am not so sure how I should feel about that and I am confused about what I should do right now.

Please clarify what the proposal is so I can re evaluate my position:

1) BTSX and all future DACs (Play, ME etc) will migrate to an new BTS DAC? What does that mean specifically? There will be 1 bitusd for all and will continue have their fixed independent supply n0 of shares (Lotto shares, Me shares, BTSX etc...)? Why do we need 1 bitusd instead of doing ACCT? For simplicity?

2) DNS, Music and VOTE will be independent or will also migrate to BTS new DAC? If these are migrated into the new Bitshares DAC how the existing allocation of shares will be affected? I assume that no change will be made to their current supply, no dilution will be made and I get the same shares % on the DACs from my AGS but please confirm.

3) Do I understand correctly now that the new BTS DAC will award me BTSX based on my AGS and that BTSX supply of 2 bil will increase by 20% i.e to 2.4 bil? But I will not be able to use these BTSX for the next 6 months?

Basically I am very confused now...At first impression I am in favor for 1 DAC to rule them all. It's simple and stronger. Having 1 client for everything would be awesome! If I can have DNS,VOTE,MUSIC, PLAY by opening 1 application it will certainly help mass adoption. 

I just want to make sure that by this proposal my AGS after 28th snapashot wasn't a bad decision. Because pre 28th snapshot and even after the 28th snapshot I was buying and holding for no reason expensive PTS...

P.S: I really don't mind this selling pressure. Keep them selling as you please but don't come back later complaining that BTSX skyrocketed and you couldn't buy cheap BTSX..

Offline luckybit

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #125 on: October 19, 2014, 10:45:11 am »
There are many problems we need to resolve as a community:

1) We don't want to compete with ourselves and divide our network effect.
2) We don't want to confuse users with a million brands.
3) We want to have 1 BitUSD for everything rather than many different BitUSDs
4) We need to recognize those who have helped fund development after Feb 28th so they don't compete with us.
5) I don't want to have divided loyalties... I cannot serve two masters.
6) We need to provide for long term funding and growth.
7) We need to resolve the consensus problem once and for all.

As a community effort we are stronger if we can agree on changes using proof of stake and we should agree once and for all that the majority will rule here.   Those that want a stable money will use BitGold or BitSilver because those are not subject to change, only supply and demand.    If you cannot trust the community of stakeholders to act wisely then create a rigid system with no rule changes and attempt to compete.

My Proposal:

1) Drop all other BitShares brands.... rename BitShares X to just BitShares
2) End PTS...  BitShares will evolve to incorporate every possible feature that stakeholders vote on.
3) If there is a clone then it should start out with stakeholders it thinks are best... because BitShares holders are uniting.
4) Add stake holder approved dilution without limit to BitShares X.
5) Bring in all AGS holders and given them a stake in BitShares X that cannot be moved for 6 months... the ratio that this stake should be given should be equal to PTS market cap... so $5 million or 10% dilution of BTSX allocated to these individuals.    This is effectively BTSX buying out our competition. 
6) Bring in one last PTS snapshot also valued at $5 million for another 10% dilution of BTSX... 6 months until funds could be spent... buy out this competition and end PTS.
7) Our team will focus on no other DACs other than BitShares in general and work to make it the most robust and *FLEXIBLE* DAC out there. 

There will still be other DACs based upon our toolkit  (Music, Gaming, DNS, etc) but those clones will not be dividing my loyalty because they have their own teams and are already known and operating independently of us.  Those who have joined those DACs can attempt to grow them how they see fit and BitShares will be competing with them where we can.

Our goal will be to scale BitShares to handle the transaction volume and users... to solve the scaling problem while still remaining decentralized and allowing 0 barriers to entry for competition except our network effect.

At the risk of calling BitShares one DAC to rule them all... I think we can worry about that after we have achieved critical mass, until then someone else may come along and build one DAC to rule them all and we don't want them to get there if we can get there first.

Once again... just proposals... everything will be thought out and community input is valued.

I think we should keep Bitshares X and PTS. Changes like these at the last minute only confuse people. It's already launched so it's too late to change in my opinion.

It's better to connect all DACs into a union using atomic cross chain capabilities.

I don't like this sort of centralization in this particular way. I think it's better to keep separate DACs and interconnect them. Think of DACs as separate corporations or states which are separate for a reason. Then connect them using atomic cross chain capabilities to allow DACs to communication with the network of DACs.

一天一个想法,3I的诚信在哪里?规则就是规则,这样搞和原来的规则差别实在太大了!

I am happy to translate your words here:

Where is 3I's integrity, why change the rules so often? Rule is rule, current proposal is very different to previous one.

I agree, too much impatience. If you change the fundamentals now then you tell all investors that you may do it again in the future. This can only result in a calapse of confidence. I would urge the core developers to stem this quickly with a reassuring statement and pray you haven't already let the cat out of the bag
It's some kind of interesting that people are already panicking (tanking price) because of a proposal ..

In the end it's a shame to have investors on board that won't allow an open discussion of a proposal and respond wo BM's openness with sell pressure ..

Also, I have the impression that people in the timezones around BM, are alot more patient and open for discussion than the following timezones which react stupidly IMHO ..

The OP still is a PROPOSAL... and for this not around here for long should be made one thing clear: BM's proposals almost never get implemented as initially proposed ... this is all a hugh discussion

These are the kind of changes you don't make after a launch. It's way too much change for the market to handle and it's not the kind of change anyone wants. The market is speaking.

In my opinion if you want unity then network the DACs using technical means. Don't change the names, don't change the internal structures or centralize it. Allow all DACs to pay a fee to join this network of DACs and use that network as a sort of support network for all the DACs.


« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 10:50:05 am by luckybit »
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Offline Pheonike

Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #126 on: October 19, 2014, 10:45:16 am »
I am in favor of the changes for the most part. We are never going to agree on a perfect solution. But simpler in my opinion is better and this simplifies a lot of things.  People are worried about dilution.  10 percent of a dollar is better than 100 percent of a penny any day.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 10:47:28 am by Pheonike »

Offline 520Bit

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #127 on: October 19, 2014, 10:55:04 am »
Make an AGS wallet and let people trade AGS freely. All issues will be resolved immediately.
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Offline happybit

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #128 on: October 19, 2014, 10:55:22 am »
Does anyone know how many downloads of an update there are every time there is an update to BTSX?  I know it is not the number of individuals that matter, but the number of stakes that decide.  Just curious how big the community is.

This whole thread reminds me of when NXT had the 50M NXT stolen from an exchange and it was "proposed" that everyone quickly within 72hours, I believe, download an update and REVERT the transaction, the forum was full of supporters of that idea (myself included) and in the end only about 3% of the nodes had the "update"... point is the vocal forum turned out to be NOTHING in the real world.

Is the Bitshares community more easily swayed then NXT?

btw, this thread is not about bitDNS and VOTE.. just letting you know that I still haven't found where these things are, and how I can buy them.  (It is either my stupidity, or a failure of marketing...probably a bit of both)

Offline Rune

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #129 on: October 19, 2014, 11:07:37 am »
We need to communicate clearly to shareholders the advantages of introducing dilution. Perhaps we should rename it to "delegated share issuance" so people will understand what its purpose is. The idea is that every new share issued will be used in a profitable way to generate a return higher than 1:1.

It seems to me the Chinese community is panicking right now. It needs to be communicated clearly to them as well.

Offline kisa

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #130 on: October 19, 2014, 11:08:50 am »
BTER.COM/TRADE/DNS_BTC

VOTE stakes are out there for pre-snapshot PTS holders. Not yet tradeable.

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #131 on: October 19, 2014, 11:12:29 am »
It seems to me the Chinese community is panicking right now. It needs to be communicated clearly to them as well.
*agreed* ..  I seems they misinterpret the term "proposal" :(
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Offline jae208

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #132 on: October 19, 2014, 11:15:58 am »
I dont like the part with " unlimited dilution" :/

Stakeholder approved dilution... I say this because the "hard rules" will force us into "consensus busting problems" in the future. 

I am working on ideas for better control over the voting process for "hard forks"....
Excellent!

This really does show how adaptive bitshares can be! Look at bitcoin unable to adapt. Still mining away, still diluting to pay for "security", etc.
Bitshares is able to change and adapt to the situation at hand. Doing what you mentioned above will greatly help Bitshares maintain a competitive edge.

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You just have to be stronger than the weakest in a particular environment in order to survive.
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Offline Protoman

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #133 on: October 19, 2014, 11:21:18 am »
BTER.COM/TRADE/DNS_BTC

VOTE stakes are out there for pre-snapshot PTS holders. Not yet tradeable.

Can you please explain this further. What is this?

I have some PTS, some AGS. Do I have to "retreive" my "VOTEs" like we did in BTSX? Is that already possible?

After I get these "VOTEs" does that mean I can trade them on the Bter link you gave?

Offline gamey

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Re: Proposal to Resolve a Million Issues at Once
« Reply #134 on: October 19, 2014, 11:24:25 am »
I am not so sure how I should feel about that and I am confused about what I should do right now.

Please clarify what the proposal is so I can re evaluate my position:

1) BTSX and all future DACs (Play, ME etc) will migrate to an new BTS DAC? What does that mean specifically? There will be 1 bitusd for all and will continue have their fixed independent supply n0 of shares (Lotto shares, Me shares, BTSX etc...)? Why do we need 1 bitusd instead of doing ACCT? For simplicity?

2) DNS, Music and VOTE will be independent or will also migrate to BTS new DAC? If these are migrated into the new Bitshares DAC how the existing allocation of shares will be affected? I assume that no change will be made to their current supply, no dilution will be made and I get the same shares % on the DACs from my AGS but please confirm.

3) Do I understand correctly now that the new BTS DAC will award me BTSX based on my AGS and that BTSX supply of 2 bil will increase by 20% i.e to 2.4 bil? But I will not be able to use these BTSX for the next 6 months?

Basically I am very confused now...At first impression I am in favor for 1 DAC to rule them all. It's simple and stronger. Having 1 client for everything would be awesome! If I can have DNS,VOTE,MUSIC, PLAY by opening 1 application it will certainly help mass adoption. 

I just want to make sure that by this proposal my AGS after 28th snapashot wasn't a bad decision. Because pre 28th snapshot and even after the 28th snapshot I was buying and holding for no reason expensive PTS...

P.S: I really don't mind this selling pressure. Keep them selling as you please but don't come back later complaining that BTSX skyrocketed and you couldn't buy cheap BTSX..

Bitshares Play would still live, but ME would be dead. (for now)

There will never be 1 bitUSD for all.  Not feasible.  Even with cross-chain trading 1 bitUSD will not be equivalent.  They're pegged to the dollar, which is not the same as being equivalent.

Music/DNS have been launched and are indepedent.  VOTE might still exist in some form, but will not have large direct support from I3. (?)

The proposal %s you suggest are correct ,but the integrated delay time to withdrawal is still largely up in the air.  The main idea is to keep everyone from dumping into these low liquidity exchanges and tanking the price.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 11:26:10 am by gamey »
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