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Messages - bitcrab

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1066
General Discussion / Re: Things I don't like about the committee
« on: February 06, 2016, 01:04:59 pm »
transparency does not mean any discussion should happen in forum, inner discussion are also needed.

1067
I feel the current auti-dilution emotion in China community mainly come from:

1. BTS's price keeps in low level for long time.
2. no exciting news that convince shareholders/users that BTS have a good future.

even so, I don't agree to reject all the worker proposals, from my own opinion, I still would like to support the worker proposals with high priority demand, efficient work and fair price, on the other hand, I will keep neutral to or even reject the worker proposals with low priority demand, inefficient work or overrated price.

a little more constrictive financial policy is suitable to such a tough time?

1068
中文(Chinese) / Re: "CoinHoarder's machine" 是个什么鬼?
« on: February 05, 2016, 02:16:16 pm »
这种行为就如同搬砖,是一定条件下一定会出现的市场行为。
如果这行为让推荐人无法盈利,那只能说明推荐制度本身不合理。

1069
currently the account upgrade volume is too low, about 0.3 account
everyday, if the volume grow to high enough, the "CoinHoarder's machine"
will appear, just like surely speculators will appear for arbitrage if
there are big price gap between different exchanges.

If you take a look at
http://cryptofresh.com/charts
and display the account updates, you will see that they are way more
than 0.3 per day, more like 5-10.

oh sorry I made a mistake, even based on abit's data - network got 6k BTS revenue from account update everyday, there should be at least 1.5 accounts  update everyday.

1070
中文(Chinese) / "CoinHoarder's machine" 是个什么鬼?
« on: February 05, 2016, 04:14:08 am »
"CoinHoarder's machine" 是指这样一个推荐人账户/钱包, 当你以此账户为推荐人注册然后升级为LTM, 此账户会将其收到的费用分成(目前为升级费用的80%,按20000升级费用算,就是16000 BTS,但这部分费用90天之后才会真正“到达”推荐人账户)中的大部分(也许是70%-100%)即时返还给你。

假设返还率为70%,那么当前每有一个被推荐人升级,"CoinHoarder's machine"会即时返还11200BTS给被推荐人,90天之后,machine收到16000的升级费用。如果升级账户数量足够多,那么这样一个模式是有利可图的,也是会吸引人来做的。

这样的machine对referrer program是一种威胁,会让referrer program变得完全无利可图。

而根据市场规律,如果升级账户数量足够多,这样的machine是一定会出现的,因此referral program其实是不可持续的。

1071
he may do not want to kill, but the referral program may be really killed by him.

How to Kill Referral Businesses:
Charlie wants the referral business to die because he thinks the inflated fees are bad for the future of Bitshares. He sets up a business that works like the rakeback business in poker [1]. Anyone that signs up under him, he gives 100% of the fees back to them that he earns. It costs him very little to set this up. It mostly just costs him the time it takes to program an automated solution. Assuming everyone acts in their own self-interest, they would register for an account with Charlie as their referrer because they will save a lot of BTS on the fees. No one can compete with 100% rakeback, and all referral businesses that rely on the referral program for profit would die off.

Actually, this "Kill Referral Businesses" example proofs exactly the opposite than [member=16778]CoinHoarder[/member] intended.

The facts are these:
- CoinHoarder's idea has not been executed by anyone so far.
- Not a single referral business demands protection from it.
Why is that?
Maybe because the referral businesses *believe* they are able to add some value for the user after all.

If they are wrong in this belief, the referral program will die eventually.
So why do you put so much effort into fighting the referral program, instead of simply getting rid of it (at least in your country) by executing CoinHoarder's machine?

currently the account upgrade volume is too low, about 0.3 account everyday, if the volume grow to high enough, the "CoinHoarder's machine" will appear, just like surely speculators will appear for arbitrage if there are big price gap between different exchanges.
Currently the network need to pay out 43k BTS to witnesses and 80k BTS to workers every day, but average daily income is only 8k BTS or so, among it about 900 come from transfers, 6k come from account upgrades.

no referral business demands protection from it perhaps because they are not aware of this. I believe their service provide some add-value, but the problem is, should/would they try to differentiate LTMs with different referrers? if not how can they defend their profit after the "CoinHoarder's machine" appear?

that is the flaw of the RP: it conflict with the "I pay to the service I use" principle, whether it is a continuable model is doubtful.

1072
中文(Chinese) / Re: 关于线性稀放的bts兑换问题
« on: February 04, 2016, 09:50:06 am »
PTS私钥文件的话,应该是先安装0.9.3c的客户端,导入PTS私钥文件。

然后再根据下面帖子里的步骤从0.9.3c里导出.json钱包文件。再到最新的2.0钱包里导入。
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,20773.0.html

1073
(2) Set the flat transfer fee at a level that is considered acceptable by China but still allows some space for %-based fees. IMO, this level is something around 10 BTS or $0.03. If we don't leave this space for %-based fees, no issuer (except the committee) will have any incentive to switch to the %-based scheme. Another advantage of maintaining this slightly higher level, is that this way there is still some incentive left to buy LTM for users who don't need any advanced features but just do a lot of transfers.

as discussed in committee, $0.018 is an acceptable flat fee.
committee can set all public smartcoins to percent fee scheme.


1074
really? I think if I just leave one sentence in my forum signature, users will pass the info one by one. no ad needed.
people like to save money and help others to save money.

So you're talking about the crypto crowd. This market is tiny and extremely tough.

I'm talking about "normal" customers who don't really care about the technology part. And this market is huge.

so is a solution such as below acceptable to you? it limit referral program to some assets.

in the updated plan, there will be 3 mode, both mode A and mode C are flat fee, but for A the fee totally go to network, for C referrer will take 80%, the flat fee will be set by committee, but I think A will own a lower fee than B. BTS is the fundamental asset in the system, need to be applied mode A with transfer fee as low as possible.

for public smartcoins, as now there are privatized smartcoins, so its ok for public smartcoins to be applied mode B. users do not like referral program/high fee can play with privatized smartcoins.

1075
it's possible for me to build such a machine, but before doing it I need to do some more detailed evaluation and preparation.
if I really release such a machine, when you refer your friend to be a LTM, will you suggest him to set you  or me as referrer?

Assuming we are talking about a friend of mine about whom I care:
- I'd suggest myself, provided I can somehow justify that. And the justification can be e.g. educational. I could help her/him to find out how the GUI works and what is the best fiat gateway etc.
- On the other hand, if I felt could not offer any added value, I'd refer her/him to you.

This applies to a friend only. Any other customer would be refereed to me. If the customer finds out about you, that's tough luck for me.
But there will be a small chance for that as you'll have no money to advertise. So I'll feel be quite assured that most people don't find out about your machine.

Once you start advertising, you'll have costs and you'll no longer be able to run your machine.

really? I think if I just leave one sentence in my forum signature, users will pass the info one by one. no ad needed.
people like to save money and help others to save money.

1076
he may do not want to kill, but the referral program may be really killed by him.

How to Kill Referral Businesses:
Charlie wants the referral business to die because he thinks the inflated fees are bad for the future of Bitshares. He sets up a business that works like the rakeback business in poker [1]. Anyone that signs up under him, he gives 100% of the fees back to them that he earns. It costs him very little to set this up. It mostly just costs him the time it takes to program an automated solution. Assuming everyone acts in their own self-interest, they would register for an account with Charlie as their referrer because they will save a lot of BTS on the fees. No one can compete with 100% rakeback, and all referral businesses that rely on the referral program for profit would die off.

Actually, this "Kill Referral Businesses" example proofs exactly the opposite than [member=16778]CoinHoarder[/member] intended.

The facts are these:
- CoinHoarder's idea has not been executed by anyone so far.
- Not a single referral business demands protection from it.
Why is that?
Maybe because the referral businesses *believe* they are able to add some value for the user after all.

If they are wrong in this belief, the referral program will die eventually.
So why do you put so much effort into fighting the referral program, instead of simply getting rid of it (at least in your country) by executing CoinHoarder's machine?

it's possible for me to build such a machine, but before doing it I need to do some more detailed evaluation and preparation.
if I really release such a machine, when you refer your friend to be a LTM, will you suggest him to set you  or me as referrer?

1077
agree +5%
Is the referral system built on top of the network as an additional feature to be used for *maximize and generate an *additional stream of profit, OR is the network built on top of the referral system to steal people's money from their "hard" work in making others people join a ponzi scheme?

I was pretty sure the first case was the one we were working on... But now that people seem to treat the referral system as the *real, *only, *major income for their business's revenue... I am lost.

Or maybe those people think bts can't do and offer nothing better then that?
If so, why are you here in the first place?

This! raised a valuable problem.
I think the whole referral implementation is flawed and we're trying to tweak the wrong things.
I think the problem is we're trying to build a public mandatory referral system and tax, when it should be left to private business, private interest to offer these thing if they are useful.

I am interested in exploring options that completely reduce the friction for users, reducing the fees, reducing the tax.  Where you've got a wide open ridiculously efficient platform with little to no cost at the core and offering innumerable optional features with many incentives to participate or utilize, like a variety of optional referral programs, built into privately created assets like FBAs or smart contracts, or just webservices etc. that might be completely separate from bitshares core. 

Could we not have many different (optional)referral programs built on top of bitshares?  User can choose the one they like, or none at all. 
Does the referral program need to be centralized as a core universal unavoidable feature/tax?
Couldn't businesses develop their own referral programs, incentives for using their wallet, their service, etc that don't rely on a core design mechanism that has a significant measurable effect on every user and every use case?

If a referral system has merit people will voluntarily use it.  I think business should design their own programs with their own source of income from their own services and not rely on a core tax on bitshares system wide.  It's a burden and inefficient.

A business might create a bitshares smart contract or a new type of transaction or feature or process or game or service etc that they design to collect a tax/fee that feeds their particular referral program.  But they would be subject to competition from competing services or competing referral programs and no one would be forced to fund them or participate in them while using the bitshares platform.

I don't like that this referral tax is unavoidable.  I think referral programs are a great idea but they should be built on top of, and in addition to bitshares, maybe not baked in the core.

Anyway, that is the direction of my thoughts lately.  I could be wrong.

I think some day the below described service will appear, the provider may do not want to kill referrer program, but just want to make profit, he do not need to pay 100% back, about 70% - 80% is attractive enough, and then he can make profit.

he may do not want to kill, but the referral program may be really killed by him.
How to Kill Referral Businesses:
Charlie wants the referral business to die because he thinks the inflated fees are bad for the future of Bitshares. He sets up a business that works like the rakeback business in poker [1]. Anyone that signs up under him, he gives 100% of the fees back to them that he earns. It costs him very little to set this up. It mostly just costs him the time it takes to program an automated solution. Assuming everyone acts in their own self-interest, they would register for an account with Charlie as their referrer because they will save a lot of BTS on the fees. No one can compete with 100% rakeback, and all referral businesses that rely on the referral program for profit would die off.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rake_(poker)#Rakeback

1078
General Discussion / Re: poll for the "1 BTS for transfer" proposal
« on: February 01, 2016, 05:06:27 am »
the current BTS referral program are not welcomed in China.

How the f*ck would you know? Or.... the referral program is not welcomed by YOU?
 
Get real. Go out, hit the streets, take an honest poll of the Chinese people en masse. Ask them if they would like to receive $50 for every lifetime member that they sign up. Go to a college campus and have some kids go out and canvas with you.
 
Get out there in the real world and see how many people you can talk to about Bitshares, get them excited, start a Meetup group, show them the mobile wallet, send them 100 BTS, get them signed up on ccedk.com or OL, shake some hands, encourage others to do the same.
 
Your hubris far outweighs my ability to describe it.

frankly speaking, what described above is something I really worry.

I am not saying that the current Bitshares referral program is pyramid scheme, but under some condition it may become something which is not very far from that.

set transfer fee to a level several times the reasonable level.
then "force" users to prepay and motivate them to refer others to prepay.

"create pain which does not exist before and force users to prepay to lessen the pain" - what I want to say is that this model is not welcomed in China BTS community.
I am not against referral program generally, but I don't think the current Bitshares referral program is healthy enough,  some improvement is necessary. we need a model like "make users feel comfortable for the fundamental service and attract them to pay more for advanced features".

in China a lot pyramid scheme/ponzi trap occured in recent years, for example:
VPAL - a ponzi trap which has some link to ripple.
MMM - come from Russia and catched a lot of followers in China and India, make a lot of people lost money.

just today, it is announced that the "ezubao" is a ponzi trap.

so we need to keep a distance away from this kind of things. and should be careful to invite potential users to prepay.

this conclusion are based on China context, and it is why China community has a strong request for a "make users feel comfortable for the fundamental service and attract them to pay more for advanced features" model.






 

1079

[member=23]bitcrab[/member] , if you say the referral program is nothing but "a trouble maker" in countries like China, maybe this is a simple solution:

Create a special faucet in China that registers new users and offers them LTM for free (or almost for free to cover the network LTM fee).
This faucet will be a non-profit entity (or will have to be subsidized a little bit by businesses like yours) but in my eyes it makes perfect sense, if you say you are able to make profit elsewhere, i.e. outside the referral program.
The only drawback is that Chinese customers will have to be aware of the vesting aspect (i.e. they pay higher fee today but 80% of it gets refunded in the future).

It's so simple that I'm sure you must have thought about it already.
But what are the reasons (apart from vesting) that prevent you from solving the problem this way?

I do not get you.
now one LTM cost 20K BTS, how can a faucet offer free LTM? even I can make a little profit, I cannot offer free LTM.
and if there is a faucet that offer free LTM, new users all around the world will come to sign up, how will openledger attract users?

1080
We are now killing a very important business that are connected to enormous market, china. I'm really worried that bitcrab leaves BTS with his customers and human networks (exchanges, celebrities). He can, because he's a business guy. If he find more attractive market than BTS he will move.
Still, BitShares needs to please more than just bitcrab
Correct. But he's still important.

here I propose mainly as a representative of China community and a committee member,  not the founder of transwiser.
whether I am important is not important,  but it is important to face the problem and find a solution.

why there are always voice from China community to request transfer fee reduction, not because we like to make noise, but because the whole China community suffered from the high fee day after day.

now in this poll more than 50% voted 1 BTS or 0.1 BTS, this shows that even outside China there are many shareholders/users are not satisfactory with current transfer fee structure.

even I leave BTS the problem still exist.

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